Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
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08-02-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 11:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I have as much of an idea as anyone possibly could in having a few years worth of conversations with opposition party members online.

You really, demonstrably don't, because you are consistently and repeatedly wrong about what you claim other people think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I have literally never seen you be right in your description of someone else's position.

(08-02-2017 11:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Which does nothing to alter the fact that these beliefs are either evidence-based, and therefore rational, or not, and therefore not.

No but it brings into question the meaning of the term evidence.

No. It doesn't.

What constitutes evidence is not complicated, Tom. It is simply anything that you can present which supports your position. But it has to actually support it by the rules of logic. This is neither complicated nor subjective.

(08-02-2017 11:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Dogs don’t tend to sit through courses on logic, nor do their thoughts follow a series of language based propositions. They don’t get to label one set of inputs as evidence and another set of input as not evidence.

Which is irrelevant to the fact that they do learn about things by collecting evidence.

(08-02-2017 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  According to you all God beliefs are illogical, so it seems that only a small fraction of us are able to posses an entry-level understanding of basic logic

This entire thread stands as testament to that fact, yes.

(08-02-2017 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  the possession of which would require you to be an atheist, at least by the end of it, apparently.

When applied to the question of belief in deities, yes.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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08-02-2017, 11:54 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 12:03 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 11:45 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  What constitutes evidence is not complicated, Tom. It is simply anything that you can present which supports your position. But it has to actually support it by the rules of logic. This is neither complicated nor subjective.

You indicated that other animals, who are clearly not able to present support for their positions, nor can actually support those positions for us by the rules of logic, are capable of having evidenced based views.

You're walking straight into your own contradictions already, perhaps that's why you dodged the other animals question in my previous post. So I'll repeat it, in hopes that you don't dodge it this time:

"So the same question applies here as well. Do all the external inputs/data/information that leads a dog brain to recognize accurate perceptions of reality, constitute as evidence? Or just some of those inputs?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 12:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 12:26 PM by Chas.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 09:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 03:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  That standards for what is considered evidence vary by discipline. We are talking about the nature of reality here, so what constitutes acceptable evidence is scientific evidence.

Pretty much every discipline is about the nature of reality, just some subset of that nature, such as history, rather than biology, or economics, or healthcare etc...

Quote:You want to broadly construe 'evidence' into meaninglessness. It is you who is playing fast and loose with the language.

Nope, I'm using the word that best serves, as the definition/meaning I'm using. If I was translating the word that has similar connotations in my native tongue, that word would be "evidence" as well. And dccording to a variety of dictionaries the best translation of that meaning, is the term "evidence".

You have made no substantive response to what I posted.

The term "scientific evidence" has an actual definition. I suggest you learn what it is.

Quote:In fact to even try and draw a line here as to what you think constitutes as evidence, using whatever criteria you might imagine, requires a great a deal of mental gymnastic, contradictory positions, to actually hold. It's the atheists equivalent of creationist trying to draw a line between kinds. It's silly.

Here's some question that might reveal these contradictions:

Do only human animals have evidence based perceptions of reality? Do dogs, and chimpanzees have evidence based perceptions of reality? Or are their perceptions of reality not evidence based?

What are "evidence based perceptions"? Do you mean beliefs?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 11:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You indicated that other animals, who are clearly not able to present support for their positions, nor can actually support those positions for us by the rules of logic, are capable of having evidenced based views.

You're walking straight into your own contradictions already

This is not a contradiction. You simply, again, do not actually understand the position you claim to be arguing against.

Animals are not capable of articulating the reasons for their behaviors and beliefs, but they demonstrably do gather evidence and act upon it. A dog will eventually make the connection between their owner putting a leash on them and it being time for a walk based on prior evidence.

(08-02-2017 11:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  perhaps that's why you dodged the other animals question in my previous post.

I did not dodge it. I ignored it, because it was a stupid question. It was my hope that you might actually read my post and learn why it was a stupid question, but apparently that is not happening any time soon.

(08-02-2017 11:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So I'll repeat it, in hopes that you don't dodge it this time:

"So the same question applies here as well. Do all the external inputs/data/information that leads a dog brain to recognize accurate perceptions of reality, constitute as evidence? Or just some of those inputs?

As I said, stupid question. Everything is evidence of something. It is a matter of what question is being asked.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-02-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Tommy stinks up *another* thread. Fuck sakes Tommy.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-02-2017, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 02:00 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 01:22 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  This is not a contradiction. You simply, again, do not actually understand the position you claim to be arguing against.

It seem that you don't, since you have yet to actually show why my definition of evidence is wrong. In fact I'm requesting that you articulate what you find wrong with it in consideration of non-human animals.

Quote:Animals are not capable of articulating the reasons for their behaviors and beliefs, but they demonstrably do gather evidence and act upon it.

A dog draws a variety of accurate conclusions based on a variety of sensory stimuli, and inputs. Now I hold that all the inputs/information/observation/stimuli that lead the dogs brain to draw these conclusions, constitute as evidence.

You on the other hand seem to want to suggest that only certain sensory stimuli, and inputs that lead to such conclusions, are evidence, while others are not. You have yet to justify this, or even provided any means of drawing the line here.

If I'm considering the external stimuli that leads my dog to draw accurate conclusion/conceptions of reality, and wanted to categorize the ones that fall into evidence, from the ones that don't, how I would make that distinction?

Quote:is a matter of what question is being asked.

I've asked the question, now try it again.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 12:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  What are "evidence based perceptions"? Do you mean beliefs?

Perception/conclusion of reality based on evidence.

The question was whether non-human animals draw accurate conclusions/perceptions of reality based on evidence.

And if so, whether all the inputs/stimuli/information/data that leads a dog's brain to these conclusion, constitute as evidence, or if only some of them do.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 01:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seem that you don't, since you have yet to actually show why my definition of evidence is wrong.

The definition is fine. Your interpretation of it is not, because you try to claim that things which do not actually support a given conclusion are still evidence simply because you claim them to do so.

That is not how this works.

(08-02-2017 01:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Animals are not capable of articulating the reasons for their behaviors and beliefs, but they demonstrably do gather evidence and act upon it.

A dog draws a variety of accurate conclusions based on a variety of sensory stimuli, and inputs. Now I hold that all the inputs/information/observation/stimuli that lead the dogs brain to draw these conclusions, constitute as evidence.

You on the other hand seem to want to suggest that only certain sensory stimuli, and inputs that lead to such conclusions, are evidence, while others are not.

You do not understand my position, because you did not actually read my post.

This is a common theme with you.

(08-02-2017 01:22 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Everything is evidence of something. It is a matter of what question is being asked.

Read.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-02-2017, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 03:06 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 02:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 01:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A dog draws a variety of accurate conclusions based on a variety of sensory stimuli, and inputs. Now I hold that all the inputs/information/observation/stimuli that lead the dogs brain to draw these conclusions, constitute as evidence.

You on the other hand seem to want to suggest that only certain sensory stimuli, and inputs that lead to such conclusions, are evidence, while others are not.

You do not understand my position, because you did not actually read my post.

This is a common theme with you.

Well that was the perfect opportunity for you to correct whatever misunderstanding I may have had with your position, instead you choose to be shifty.


(08-02-2017 01:22 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Everything is evidence of something. It is a matter of what question is being asked.

Read.
[/quote]

A statement that avoids actually answering the question I proposed.
But perhaps I can try and extrapolate an answer from it, and you can tell me if this is a correct understanding of your position. .

As to whether all the inputs/stimuli/information/data that leads a dog's brain to accurate perception of reality, constitute as evidence. The answer is yes, since all these inputs/stimuli/information leads to that conclusion.

Agreed?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well that was the perfect opportunity for you to correct whatever misunderstanding I may have had with your position, instead you choose to be shifty.

No. I went on to correct you in the immediate follow-on, but you-

(08-02-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:
(08-02-2017 01:22 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Everything is evidence of something. It is a matter of what question is being asked.

Read.

A statement that avoids actually answering the question I proposed.

-failed to understand that as well, despite it being painfully simple.

Everything is evidence of something, Tom. You could hold up a random apple and ask "is this evidence?", and technically, yes, it would be. It would be evidence that you are holding an apple. Or that apple trees exist. Or any number of other things.

But it would not be evidence that, for example, you are a lizard person wearing a human suit and have extreme problems with understanding simple English.

"Is this evidence?" is a meaningless question unless you indicate the position that it is meant to be evidence of.

This is not complicated.

Read.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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