Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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08-02-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:13 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "Is this evidence?" is a meaningless question unless you indicate the position that it is meant to be evidence of.

This is not complicated.

Read.

I did indicate the position, which is an "accurate perception of reality", any accurate perceptions of reality can be plugged in here if you choose to, such as my dog accurately perceiving another dog as friendly , my dog accurately perceiving when he behaves a certain way, he gets my approval and rewards, my dog accurately perceiving that I'm hurt, that i'm depressed, etc...

The question is whether all the stimuli/inputs/data/observations that lead him to this accurate "position", constitute as evidence, or if only some of those stimuli/inputs/etc.. that led him to that accurate position, would constitute as evidence.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 03:13 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "Is this evidence?" is a meaningless question unless you indicate the position that it is meant to be evidence of.

This is not complicated.

Read.

I did indicate the position, which is an "accurate perception of reality", any accurate perceptions of reality can be plugged here if you choose to, such as my dog accurately perceiving another dog as friendly , my dog accurately perceiving when he behaves a certain way, he get my approval and treats, my dog accurately perceiving that I'm hurt, that i'm depressed, etc...

The question is whether all the stimuli/inputs/data/observations that lead him to this accurate "position", constitute as evidence, or if only some of those stimuli/inputs/etc.. that led him to that accurate position, would constitute as evidence in such positions.

None of it is "evidence". They are learning experiences. Dogs learn from experiences.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-02-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The question is whether all the stimuli/inputs/data/observations that lead him to this accurate "position", constitute as evidence, or if only some of those stimuli/inputs/etc.. that led him to that accurate position, would constitute as evidence in such positions.

Only those which actually support the given position by the rules of logic are evidence.

Other things which do not support the position may or may not influence your beliefs. This does not make them evidence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-02-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 10:02 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It really doesn't. It just requires an entry-level understanding of basic logic.

According to you all God beliefs are illogical, so it seems that only a small fraction of us are able to posses an entry-level understanding of basic logic, the possession of which would require you to be an atheist, at least by the end of it, apparently.

That might be the first coherent thing I've read from you.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-02-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 01:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 12:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  What are "evidence based perceptions"? Do you mean beliefs?

Perception/conclusion of reality based on evidence.

The question was whether non-human animals draw accurate conclusions/perceptions of reality based on evidence.

And if so, whether all the inputs/stimuli/information/data that leads a dog's brain to these conclusion, constitute as evidence, or if only some of them do.

That question is far too amorphous. The inputs we get are data, not necessarily evidence.

Evidence is a subset of the data, selected for its applicability.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:26 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Only those which actually support the given position by the rules of logic are evidence.

Dog's don't sit through basic courses of logic, they're governed by the natural/predisposed thought processes of their biological brain, drawing conclusions based on a variety of sensory inputs. Call it their intuitive, predisposed reasoning.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you'd say that a dogs intuitive/predisposed reasoning capacities of the brain, the natural rules their brains process information, perceive reality, are synonymous with the rules of logic.

If you don't think they're synonymous, and data/information/stimuli can't be evidence, if they're not the result of following those rules, then this would mean that dogs also have a non-logical, non-evidence based means of accurately perceiving reality. This not only would apply to dogs of course but to humans, and other animals as well.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  None of it is "evidence". They are learning experiences. Dogs learn from experiences.

As Unbeliever indicated evidence based perceptions, are not exclusively a human thing, that animals like dog gather evidence too.

Perhaps you disagree with that, and believe only humans, and not any other animal, draws evidence based conclusions.Thats it's a uniquely human thing.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  That question is far too amorphous. The inputs we get are data, not necessarily evidence.

Evidence is a subset of the data, selected for its applicability.

That subset of data becomes evidence when it used to draw a particular conclusion, in the example accurate conclusions/accurate perceptions of reality, is what that subset of data (evidence) led to.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-02-2017, 04:31 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Dog's don't sit through basic courses of logic

Whether or not something is evidence is not determined by whether or not you are aware that it is.

Dogs, and other animals, have extremely primitive capabilities relating to reason. They are not capable of articulating these capabilities, but they still have them. They are capable of rudimentary induction, along with other basic logical operations. Their use of logic and evidence is primitive and trivial, but it is present.

So no, Tom. Dogs do not magically intuit the true nature of reality. You don't, either.

You're just making shit up.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-02-2017, 04:35 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 03:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 03:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  That question is far too amorphous. The inputs we get are data, not necessarily evidence.

Evidence is a subset of the data, selected for its applicability.

That subset of data becomes evidence when it used to draw a particular conclusion,

No, it becomes evidence for that conclusion - rightly or wrongly. It may also be evidence of some other conclusion. And it may be evidence before there is a conclusion - especially when there is insufficient evidence to draw a conclusion.

Quote:in the example accurate conclusions/accurate perceptions of reality, is what that subset of data (evidence) led to.

Could you re-word that? I don't understand it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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