Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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09-02-2017, 05:15 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(09-02-2017 04:53 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  how would you explain deathbed visions where ppl claim to see a white ghost like entity.leaving the body of a sick person in the hospital?

People claim to see bigfoot, aliens, and the loch ness monster too. Unsupported claims by people under strong emotional duress aren't of much value. If something could really be seen leaving the body at death we'd have recordings of it.

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09-02-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(09-02-2017 04:53 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 12:46 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  On my present understanding there are no gods, no supernatural entities, no afterlife, no miracles, nuthin like that at all.


Don't stop me enjoying reading myths, legends and fantasy books though! Smile

how would you explain deathbed visions where ppl claim to see a white ghost like entity.leaving the body of a sick person in the hospital?

People claim lots of things - doesn't mean they're true.

Evidence is required. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-02-2017, 06:53 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
I'm ignostic, because I consider the question to be too vague to answer. "God" means whatever someone says it means, basically. So my answer would depend on the person I'm dealing with, and their idea.

The only sensible definition I have is "intelligent creator of our reality". With regard to that, I have no opinion either way, so the answer to the poll question would be no. The more bullshit a person piles onto that, the more likely I am to believe no such thing is real.

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09-02-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(09-02-2017 05:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 04:53 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  how would you explain deathbed visions where ppl claim to see a white ghost like entity.leaving the body of a sick person in the hospital?

People claim lots of things - doesn't mean they're true.

Evidence is required. Drinking Beverage

How would you explain that in 99.999999 % of deaths, no one sees anything like that ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-02-2017, 10:42 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(09-02-2017 04:53 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  how would you explain deathbed visions where ppl claim to see a white ghost like entity leaving the body of a sick person in the hospital?
I bolded and italicized the answer to your own question.

I ask people who claim extraordinary things to evidence their claims. No one ever evidences such claims in even the slightest way.

What is even more amazing, people like you think that it's somehow significant and consequential and evidential that people simply claim stuff. Where would you even get such a notion? Surely you don't think I'd automatically believe you if you claimed to be an lizard alien in disguise, or to be the son of god, or to be capable of reading my mind. Why then the special pleading for claims of seeing ghosts?
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10-02-2017, 12:10 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2017 12:13 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(09-02-2017 05:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 04:53 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  how would you explain deathbed visions where ppl claim to see a white ghost like entity.leaving the body of a sick person in the hospital?

People claim lots of things - doesn't mean they're true.

Evidence is required. Drinking Beverage

Right. Evidence is the filter through which claims must go. If they don't have any, too bad. If the claim is really true, it shouldn't be too hard to eventually produce some proper evidence rather than relying on anecdotes. The latter are of no use in verifying anything above the mundane.

The "vision" itself could be explained as a lie, a hallucination, a mistake or an altered memory through suggestion. It could also be true, but without evidence, the claim has to be discounted. The person may really believe their own account, but that doesn't make it true either.

If you believe fantastical claims based on anecdotes, you're just picking and choosing your beliefs based on appeals to popularity.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-02-2017, 01:57 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(09-02-2017 04:53 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 12:46 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  On my present understanding there are no gods, no supernatural entities, no afterlife, no miracles, nuthin like that at all.


Don't stop me enjoying reading myths, legends and fantasy books though! Smile

how would you explain deathbed visions where ppl claim to see a white ghost like entity.leaving the body of a sick person in the hospital?

There is nothing to explain as it's lie or delusion.

There is no evidence for something called soul so theists apparently are grasping at straws to dupe others and reinforce their own childish belief.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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10-02-2017, 06:52 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 05:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't see much of reason to argue with you here, other than I would quibble that it becomes evidence even when used for the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, hence the reason why the rest of unused data, treated as irrelevant to the conclusion is not regarded as evidence. The term evidence acquires it's meaning by function.

One can recognize that a fact is evidence without reaching a conclusion. There is a process of gathering evidence.

I think what Tommy is trying to say is that evidence implies some purpose whereas data does not. Fair enough. Sounds right. Evidence is data in context.

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12-02-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(08-02-2017 06:01 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  In other words, dealing with evidence and drawing rational conclusions from it.

You really don't seem to have any idea what these terms actually mean. You just try to reject them on principle because you don't like having to admit that you need an actual, rational basis for your beliefs if you want them to be considered valid.

I don’t think you actually are aware of what it is I’m rejecting, or the purpose of why I brought up others animals in the first place.

But let’s summarize some of our agreed upon points. A rational basis for ones beliefs, doesn’t require being consciously aware of the basis of ones beliefs, as you recognize with the dog example. That dogs makes a variety of rationally based, evidenced based assessments without actually being aware of this process, just the result. Placing rational thinking as part of intuitive biological disposed reasoning capacities. I need no entry-level class on basic logic.

It should also go without saying that rationally based, evidence based positions may still be false. Perhaps because there was some other evidence, that wasn’t available for you at the time that might have led you to conclude otherwise.

But what’s interesting about your position is not that you believe that a belief in the existence of God is a false belief, but that you also believe that a belief in God’s existence cannot be evidence based, or rationally based. Even though our biological predisposed human brains have almost universally and historically been led to such conclusions.

My brain follows the same organic thought process when it concludes that God exists, as when it does many other accurate perceptions of reality, inferring from wide variety of external stimuli. What you fail to acknowledge is that the same pathways that lead to the conclusion that God exists, can’t be called irrational, or non-evidence based, just because you think the conclusion is false, or even if the conclusion is false. That’s just silly.

It doesn’t make any sense to label it only rational and evidence based only when those same pathways lead to accurate conclusions.

In fact these pathways have been entirely reliable in deciphering a great deal of reality, accurately making predictions, etc…. So it’s kind weird to deem a mode of reasoning that leads to accurate assessments, as anything other than logical, or evidence based.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-02-2017, 09:12 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2017 09:15 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But what’s interesting about your position is not that you believe that a belief in the existence of God is a false belief, but that you also believe that a belief in God’s existence cannot be evidence based, or rationally based. Even though our biological predisposed human brains have almost universally and historically been led to such conclusions.


If a god claim is supernatural, then it exists outside of the realm of falsification. It will therefore always be an unevidenced claim, and thus, not rationally or evidentiary justifiable.



(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My brain follows the same organic thought process when it concludes that God exists, as when it does many other accurate perceptions of reality, inferring from wide variety of external stimuli. What you fail to acknowledge is that the same pathways that lead to the conclusion that God exists, can’t be called irrational, or non-evidence based, just because you think the conclusion is false, or even if the conclusion is false. That’s just silly.


Except that we can. Your faith in the accuracy of your perceptions is misplaced. One has to wonder why the external stimuli you claim to rely upon for your god belief somehow cannot be objectively verified. Just cause you think it's rational, doesn't make it so. As many of us here have demonstrated, you have displayed levels of ignorance indicating you complete lack of awareness of just how illogical you are. Just because you lack the ability to comprehend your shortcomings, doesn't make them disappear.

My father thinks his faith is evidence based. He simply doesn't know enough about the evaluation of evidence to understand why the things he thinks are evidence are in fact not. Whenever confronted about this, he defects, choosing to adhere to his preferred conclusions rather than genuinely explore the possibility that he's fundamentally mistaken. I see you rather consistently suffering from the same willful ignorance.



(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It doesn’t make any sense to label it only rational and evidence based only when those same pathways lead to accurate conclusions.


Yeah, but when people refuse to correct their conclusions when it's demonstrated just how illogical or lacking in evidence their current ones are, they're indulging in willful ignorance and motivated reasoning.



(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact these pathways have been entirely reliable in deciphering a great deal of reality, accurately making predictions, etc…. So it’s kind weird to deem a mode of reasoning that leads to accurate assessments, as anything other than logical, or evidence based.

This statement shows just how little you know, and the confidence with which you say it doesn't help. We evolved on the plains of Africa, as naked and paranoid apes trying to survive after coming down out of the trees. Our cognitive processes have been forged by natural selection to favor false positive mistakes, seeing things that aren't there. The paranoid ape who hears a lion in every rustle of grass and acts accordingly is more likely to pass on there genes than a less paranoid ape; the later being more likely to become lunch through inattention. That evolutionary advantageous adaptation didn't favor logic and rationality. We didn't evolve to be logical or rational, and we're not naturally inclined to do so. We are answer seekers, but history has shown that we are more than happy to make shit up whenever we don't have an answer; and that those made up answers are very hard to discard once they've been attached to.

Once again, your 'knowledge' and 'understanding' of the relevant fields is quite lacking. In other words, par for the course.

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