Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
[Show Results]
 
For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-02-2017, 10:05 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 09:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If a god claim is supernatural, then it exists outside of the realm of falsification. It will therefore always be an unevidenced claim, and thus, not rationally or evidentiary justifiable.

My belief that God exists is based on perceptions of intentionality, teleology, meaning, purpose, etc…. all of which are rationally and evidence based, contrary to an atheists opinion. They are rationally and evidence based even if God does not exist, and this belief was later proven to be false.

They are as rationally and evidence, based as any other non-human animal, is able to draw rationally and evidence based perceptions of reality.

The common counter arguments I’ve seen indicated here, are primarily two commonally used counter positions:

1.) you can’t infer intentionality without first proving the source of it, that we can’t infer design, without establishing who the designer is, or what his physical properties are, etc..

2.) the second argument, is a very bad attempt by atheists trying to draw a line between what constitutes as a evidence or not, and what constitutes as rational or not, and the brain intuitive/organic reasoning. As well as what constitutes as evidence from the external stimuli/information/data that biological brains draw their perceptions of reality from.

Quote:Except that we can. Your faith in the accuracy of your perceptions is misplaced. One has to wonder why the external stimuli you claim to rely upon for your god belief somehow cannot be objectively verified.

It can be, just as much as the claim that “we’re a cosmic accident can be”, or “that we’re just a cosmic puddle” can be. The question is more about the conclusions being drawn from the data, two competing conclusions, based on similar data sets.

Quote:Just cause you think it's rational, doesn't make it so.

Just because you think it’s irrational doesn’t make it so. In fact atheists tend to be quite contradictory, and incoherent by what they mean by terms like evidence, and rational, particularly when attempting to actually apply it, such as in consideration of non-human animals.

Quote:Yeah, but when people refuse to correct their conclusions when it's demonstrated just how illogical or lacking in evidence their current ones are, they're indulging in willful ignorance and motivated reasoning.

No one has yet to correct my position, what they attempt to do is appeal to some belief of theirs, and demand that I share it with them, such as their communal and contradictory meanings of the term evidence, or their contradictory views of rationality.

Quote:This statement shows just how little you know, and the confidence with which you say it doesn't help. We evolved on the plains of Africa, as naked and paranoid apes trying to survive after coming down out of the trees. Our cognitive processes have been forged by natural selection to favor false positive mistakes, seeing things that aren't there. The paranoid ape who hears a lion in every rustle of grass and acts accordingly is more likely to pass on there genes than a less paranoid ape; the later being more likely to become lunch through inattention. That evolutionary advantageous adaptation didn't favor logic and rationality. We didn't evolve to be logical or rational, and we're not naturally inclined to do so. We are answer seekers, but history has shown that we are more than happy to make shit up whenever we don't have an answer; and that those made up answers are very hard to discard once they've been attached to.

If our minds are not naturally attuned to being logical and rational, if natural selection didn’t select for minds that are attuned to thinking rationally and logically, then we have no real business trusting our minds at all.

It also brings into question, the supposed belief that we can transcend these natural limitations, transforms our brains from operating contrary to it’s natural capacities, to think rationally and logical.

It also seems to want to suggest that thinking rationally and logically are exclusively a human thing, not privy to non-human animals, who have nothing but their biologically tuned brains to rely on.

And lastly, it brings into question the very meaning of truth, that whatever brains that rely primarily on their biological perceptions, and thought processes perceives as truth, is something other than truth, perhaps truth in the pragmatist view, that what’s true is merely something which is useful. As long it’s useful to believe something is true, it’s true.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
At work.

Just a point Tomasia but, having bin on your particular rodeo before, we have read your posts where in after much ducking, weaving, dodging, obfuscating and other nonsense you admitted that the only thing you have is a book.

Are you back to posting about your rodeo, then?


Drinking Beverage
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 10:31 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Just a point Tomasia but, having bin on your particular rodeo before, we have read your posts where in after much ducking, weaving, dodging, obfuscating and other nonsense you admitted that the only thing you have is a book.

Are you back to posting about your rodeo, then?


Drinking Beverage

And you admitted to erecting a strawman. I guess you're back to the posting that rodeo again huh?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 10:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-02-2017 10:31 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Just a point Tomasia but, having bin on your particular rodeo before, we have read your posts where in after much ducking, weaving, dodging, obfuscating and other nonsense you admitted that the only thing you have is a book.

Are you back to posting about your rodeo, then?


Drinking Beverage

And you admitted to erecting a strawman. I guess you're back to the posting that rodeo again huh?

Pardon?

I'm sorry the weather here's been horrible. Could you please put the number of the post or add a link to where I erected a straw-man?

Thumbsup

Yes, it seems you're going/running around in the same circles you usually do.

Thumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don’t think you actually are aware of what it is I’m rejecting, or the purpose of why I brought up others animals in the first place.

No, I am.

You're just wrong.

(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But what’s interesting about your position is not that you believe that a belief in the existence of God is a false belief, but that you also believe that a belief in God’s existence cannot be evidence based, or rationally based.

Because there is no evidence for the existence of gods, yes.

(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even though our biological predisposed human brains have almost universally and historically been led to such conclusions.

Yes, people have been stupid throughout history. Very observant.

(12-02-2017 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What you fail to acknowledge is that the same pathways that lead to the conclusion that God exists, can’t be called irrational, or non-evidence based, just because you think the conclusion is false, or even if the conclusion is false. That’s just silly.

No, but they can be called irrational and non-evidence-based because there is demonstrably no evidence that supports the conclusion.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 03:05 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 10:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My belief that God exists is based on perceptions of intentionality, teleology, meaning, purpose, etc…. all of which are rationally and evidence based, contrary to an atheists opinion.

No, they aren't.

If they were, you could present some evidence.

But they're not.

So you can't.

(12-02-2017 10:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The common counter arguments I’ve seen indicated here, are

...irrelevant until you actually establish a case to argue against.

You have not.

(12-02-2017 10:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It can be, just as much as the claim that “we’re a cosmic accident can be”, or “that we’re just a cosmic puddle” can be.

No, it isn't.

If it was, you could present some evidence.

But it's not.

So you can't.

(12-02-2017 10:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No one has yet to correct my position

Because you haven't established one.

You never do. Threads like you always run the same pointless circle; you enter, create straw man representations of atheist positions, fail to understand basic terms like "null hypothesis", and spend a while running in circles saying "my beliefs are just as rational as yours" despite the fact that they demonstrably are not.

Because, if they were, you could present some evidence for them.

But they're not.

So you can't.

(12-02-2017 10:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If our minds are not naturally attuned to being logical and rational, if natural selection didn’t select for minds that are attuned to thinking rationally and logically, then we have no real business trusting our minds at all.

It also brings into question, the supposed belief that we can transcend these natural limitations, transforms our brains from operating contrary to it’s natural capacities, to think rationally and logical.

It also seems to want to suggest that thinking rationally and logically are exclusively a human thing, not privy to non-human animals, who have nothing but their biologically tuned brains to rely on.

And lastly, it brings into question the very meaning of truth, that whatever brains that rely primarily on their biological perceptions, and thought processes perceives as truth, is something other than truth, perhaps truth in the pragmatist view, that what’s true is merely something which is useful. As long it’s useful to believe something is true, it’s true.

It does none of those things.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Unbeliever's post
12-02-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
I have no idea what "gods" are, and very few people are willing to tell me.

If it's just an intelligent creator, then I have no belief one way or the other. If it's a highly specific character from a story book, then yeah, I believe no such thing exists.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 02:59 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You never do. Threads like you always run the same pointless circle; you enter, create straw man representations of atheist positions, fail to understand basic terms like "null hypothesis", and spend a while running in circles saying "my beliefs are just as rational as yours" despite the fact that they demonstrably are not.

No I don’t think my belief are just as rational as yours. I think your beliefs are incoherent, and contradictory, hence why you think I need a college course on logic to comprehend them. You continually claim that I don’t understand” a term, yet have at no point have actually corrected them, indicating exactly why my use of the terms is incorrect.

Furthermore, as I indicated previously as far as reasoning, goes, I rely solely on my evolutionary produced brain, and the organic, inherent reasoning capacities of it. If your ideas of logic and reasoning, don’t conform to this, then they’re rather useless, because our evolutionary produced brains is all well have.

Quote:It does none of those things.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

And this is an example of your overly repeated counter argument. Which is not really an argument at all. You just keep repeating that I’m wrong, without even remotely arguing or addressing how or why I am wrong.

This is basically what you’ve been reduced to, unable to argue any of your counter points, just repeating like a parrot that I’m wrong, without providing anything substantive to indicate that.

Quote:Yes, people have been stupid throughout history. Very observant.

Human brains have concluded that God/Creator exists, based on variety of external stimuli, and that natural/intuitive/organic reasoning tendency of their evolutionary produced brains. Whether God beliefs are true of false, the same reasoning resulted in wide variety of accurate perceptions of reality as well.

In fact that’s all there is. There’s just the brains naturally capacity to reason, produced by countless years of evolution and natural selection. If your ideas of rational and logical are not in accordance with how brains naturally work, and draw conclusion son their own, then it’s just your own personal superstitions. Your brain doesn’t process information, any differently then countless other human brains, past and present, with or without courses in logic. Your biologically produced brain dictates how you think and process information. You don’t dictate how it processes information, anymore so than you dictate how your body processes milk.

But such points for you likely don’t register, because your beliefs regarding rationalist, logic, objectivity, are linked to your sense of self. And we know from a variety of studies, that when the truth runs counter to your value self-image, our brains reject it, and attempt to preserve our false imagine of ourselves at all cost.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2017, 04:06 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 03:37 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I have no idea what "gods" are, and very few people are willing to tell me.

If it's just an intelligent creator, then I have no belief one way or the other. If it's a highly specific character from a story book, then yeah, I believe no such thing exists.


What if you were writing the story? Would you believe it then? Big Grin

He wanted to dream a man; he wanted to dream him in minute entirety and impose him on reality. ... In the dream of the man that dreamed, the dreamed one awoke. ... With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him.


Hobo

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
12-02-2017, 04:38 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think your beliefs are incoherent, and contradictory

And yet you can never show how.

Funny, that.

(12-02-2017 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You continually claim that I don’t understand” a term, yet have at no point have actually corrected them

Except all the times I have, you mean.

There are more examples of you being corrected, both on those terms and others, throughout the various threads you have participated in.

Ignoring them will not make them go away.

(12-02-2017 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And this is an example of your overly repeated counter argument. Which is not really an argument at all. You just keep repeating that I’m wrong, without even remotely arguing or addressing how or why I am wrong.

Because there is no need to. You have not given any reason to believe that you are right. You merely asserted that brains being organic means that these things are true, without justifying any of them.

As your position is unsupported, it is dismissed.

Just like always.

(12-02-2017 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Yes, people have been stupid throughout history. Very observant.

Human brains have concluded that God/Creator exists, based on variety of external stimuli, and that natural/intuitive/organic reasoning tendency of their evolutionary produced brains. Whether God beliefs are true of false, the same reasoning resulted in wide variety of accurate perceptions of reality as well.

Quote:Yes, people have been stupid throughout history. Very observant.

(12-02-2017 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact that’s all there is. There’s just the brains naturally capacity to reason, produced by countless years of evolution and natural selection. If your ideas of rational and logical are not in accordance with how brains naturally work, and draw conclusion son their own, then it’s just your own personal superstitions.

This is gibberish.

Arguing that logic and rationality do not exist is not going to get you anywhere, Tom.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: