Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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12-02-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 04:38 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And yet you can never show how.

Funny, that.

For starters, as of now you have yet to provide a clear description of evidence so that I can categorize the stimuli my dog uses to infer an accurate perception of reality, such as perceiving another dog as friendly, constitute as evidence and which doesn’t. I previously indicated all of it constitutes as evidence. That evidence is all the data/stimuli/information thats leads a person or animal to a conclusion about reality. You on the other hand believe there’s an imaginary line that divides some stimuli/information from other stimuli/information, that one set categorizes as evidence, while another set does not, for whatever reason. But you have yet to present a means to draw that line, so that we know where to draw it.

Quote:Arguing that logic and rationality do not exist is not going to get you anywhere, Tom.

Logic and rationality would have to correspond to the natural and evolutionary produced ways brains process information and stimuli. If you imagine it as something other than that, as some means of transcending the limitations placed on us as biological creatures, with biological brains, then you’re peddling woo.

Perhaps you imagine that your brain processes information differently than how other brains naturally/intuitively/organically process information. Different than how our evolutionary ancestors do, how human brains historically have for the last several thousands years, etc.. Perhaps the story here, is that you altered, modified how your brain processes information after sitting through some course of logic and reason, to operate quite distinctly from evolutionary selected for ways your brain previously processed information/and stimuli.

But this would just be fluff, a myth of your own making, woo.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-02-2017, 05:19 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 05:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  For starters, as of now you have yet to provide a clear description of evidence

(12-02-2017 04:38 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Except all the times I have, you mean.

There are more examples of you being corrected, both on those terms and others, throughout the various threads you have participated in.

Ignoring them will not make them go away.

(08-02-2017 03:26 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Only those which actually support the given position by the rules of logic are evidence.

Other things which do not support the position may or may not influence your beliefs. This does not make them evidence.

Read before responding, you jackaninny.

(12-02-2017 05:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Arguing that logic and rationality do not exist is not going to get you anywhere, Tom.

Logic and rationality would have to correspond to the natural and evolutionary produced ways brains process information and stimuli.

No.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-02-2017, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2017 06:20 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 05:19 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Only those which actually support the given position by the rules of logic are evidence.

And who determines whether they are supported by the rules of logic or not? Are all thought process that produce accurate perceptions of reality, more times than not, by the very nature of producing reliable perceptions, logical? Are the process in which how a wife understands how her husbands feels, more often than not, how individuals perceive the meaning of a parable, the moral of story, rational and logical? Are all the natural, organic ways in which the brain draws accurate perceptions of reality, logic based? Indicated by producing accurate perceptions?

A man familiar with created/designed objects, sees an object that shares a variety of commonality and features with designed and created things, based on his understanding of what created/designed things look like, and the similarity shared by the object in question, he concludes that the object was designed. Is this a rational, evidence based conclusion, regardless of whether he's right or wrong in his assessment? Does his intuitive predictive model follow from the rules of logic?

Quote:
(12-02-2017 05:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Logic and rationality would have to correspond to the natural and evolutionary produced ways brains process information and stimuli.

No.
[/quote]

Ah okay so your brain didn't naturally process information and stimuli logically and rationally. So when did you acquire this ability? How did you acquire it? What percentage of human brains do you believe share this ability with you?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-02-2017, 06:35 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-02-2017 05:19 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Only those which actually support the given position by the rules of logic are evidence.

And who determines whether they are supported by the rules of logic or not?

The rules of logic. In the same way, the rules of mathematics determine whether or not you have managed to add two and two correctly.

(12-02-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are all thought process that produce accurate perceptions of reality, more times than not, by the very nature of producing reliable perceptions, logical? Are the process in which how a wife understands how her husbands feels, more often than not, how individuals perceive the meaning of a parable, the moral of story, rational and logical?

Most of the time, yes.

(12-02-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A man familiar with created/designed objects, sees an object that shares a variety of commonality and features with designed and created things, based on his understanding of what created/designed things look like, and the similarity shared by the object in question, he concludes that the object was designed. Is this a rational, evidence based conclusion, regardless of whether he's right or wrong in his assessment? Does his intuitive predictive model follow from the rules of logic?

There is insufficient information to say.

If you are attempting to imply that your obsession with teleology is based in rationality, though, I can tell you flat out that the answer is no.

(12-02-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Ah okay so your brain didn't naturally process information and stimuli logically and rationally.

That was not the assertion being responded to.

I know you don't read my posts, Tom, but you might try at least reading yours. You obviously have enough problems with carrying on a coherent conversation already. You don't need to handicap yourself like this.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-02-2017, 07:08 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 06:35 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  The rules of logic. In the same way, the rules of mathematics determine whether or not you have managed to add two and two correctly.

If two people disagree on the interpretation and application of a particular rule of logic, who determines which interpretation is correct?

You claim that rules of logic dictate that God does not exist, and that beliefs in any God whatsoever including deistic conceptions, are illogical and irrational, though pretty much everyone who is not an atheist would disagree. Who determines whose right? If I asked every university professor who taught classes on logic and reason, what percentage do you predict will agree with you that all god beliefs are irrational and illogical? Most of them?


Quote:If you are attempting to imply that your obsession with teleology is based in rationality, though, I can tell you flat out that the answer is no.

I derive intentionality, purpose, and meaning, in constantly the same way, following the same thought process, and if we leave the God question, religion aside, it’s been quite reliable. I did exceptionally well in school, in a variety of subjects, in life, in marriage, in relationship, in friendships, career, etc.. governed by my natural reasoning abilities. If that process is not rational, logical, or evidence based, then I guess i must have a non-logical, non-rational, non-evidence based, means of drawing accurate perceptions of reality. In fact there’s seems little reason to believe that in life, you’re any better at this than I am, lol.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-02-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 07:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-02-2017 06:35 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  The rules of logic. In the same way, the rules of mathematics determine whether or not you have managed to add two and two correctly.

If two people disagree on the interpretation and application of a particular rule of logic, who determines which interpretation is correct?

You really don't seem to be getting the point here.

If two people "disagree" on what the rules of logic say, one of them is simply wrong. In the same way, if two people "disagree" about two plus two being equal to five, one of them is simply wrong.

The rules of logic have formal definitions that are not up to debate, and their applications are not subjective.

Once again, you need to do some basic research about the things that you are trying to discuss.

(12-02-2017 07:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You claim that rules of logic dictate that God does not exist

No. The rules of logic have nothing to say about the existence of a god, just as they have nothing to say about any specific proposition. The rules of logic are a set of tools, not maxims.

I say that a rational examination of the evidence inevitably results in the conclusion that gods do not exist. And I am right.

(12-02-2017 07:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I asked every university professor who taught classes on logic and reason, what percentage do you predict will agree with you that all god beliefs are irrational and illogical? Most of them?

It doesn't matter.

(12-02-2017 07:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I derive intentionality, purpose, and meaning, in constantly the same way, following the same thought process, and if we leave the God question, religion aside, it’s been quite reliable.

That's wonderful.

You still have no evidence for teleology, or any of your other silly little beliefs.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-02-2017, 07:39 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 07:20 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If two people "disagree" on what the rules of logic say, one of them is simply wrong. In the same way, if two people "disagree" about two plus two being equal to five, one of them is simply wrong.

The rules of logic have formal definitions that are not up to debate, and their applications are not subjective.

lol. You clearly have a different interpretation of these rules, and terms, and how they are applied, than others not just me. You think they're simply wrong, they think you're simply wrong. In fact these disagreements are quite strong, and quite divided, with atheists such as yourself on one end, making up a fraction of the views, and theists of every stripe on the other end.

Quote:No. The rules of logic have nothing to say about the existence of a god, just as they have nothing to say about any specific proposition. The rules of logic are a set of tools, not maxims.

I say that a rational examination of the evidence inevitably results in the conclusion that gods do not exist. And I am right.

You claimed that belief in God is irrational and illogical. If one follows the rules of logic, they have no choice but to conclude that God does not exist, according to you. That's interpretation of the rules of logic, that's exclusively an atheists view, but no way shape or form the majority view, the views of professors on the subject, philosophers etc.... You think your interpretation is correct, they see their interpretation as correct.

Quote:It doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, lol. Because apparently those who devoted their professional lives to the topic, who teach about in universities, can't apply it properly either.

Quote:That's wonderful.

And you're funny.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-02-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 07:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  lol. You clearly have a different interpretation of these rules, and terms, and how they are applied, than others not just me.

Why, yes. There are a lot of people who don't know how logic works. How astute of you to notice.

You are among them.

Unfortunately for you, no matter how many idiots there are who fail to understand the subject matter, it will never make them right.

(12-02-2017 07:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If one follows the rules of logic, they have no choice but to conclude that God does not exist, according to you. That's interpretation of the rules of logic, that's exclusively an atheists view, but no way shape or form the majority view, the views of professors on the subject, philosophers etc.... You think your interpretation is correct, they see their interpretation as correct.

It doesn't matter if they think they are correct. They are not.

As I said: idiots throughout history.

(12-02-2017 07:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Of course it matters, lol.

No, it doesn't. There is a reason that the appeal to popularity is a fallacy, Tom.

It doesn't matter how many people, professors or otherwise, disagree that there is no logical basis for a belief in the existence of a god. It matters how many of them can actually demonstrate that there is.

There are none.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-02-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 08:24 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Why, yes. There are a lot of people who don't know how logic works. How astute of you to notice.

You are among them.

Unfortunately for you, no matter how many idiots there are who fail to understand the subject matter, it will never make them right.

I don't think the guy who imagines that atheism is the only conclusion one can derive using logic and reason, understands how logic works. Clearly however he imagines it, it's not really how it works at all, when the actual application of it yields a plethora of results, and positions.

Not to mention that many of these rules of logic, were formed by theists themselves. Who would have been surprised to find that the very rules they formulated exclude their most fundamental beliefs.

In your fantasy world there's these rules of logic, that remain inaccessible and elusive mystery for mankind as a whole, in which a select few, like King Arthur are able to properly wield it's sword. To be among their elite ranks, you must be able to wear an A pin on your collar. It's only those who are atheists that can truly appreciate and understand and apply the sacred laws of logic, all those who have ever believed in God will never be able to, which is pretty much everybody.

Poor me, a man among giants.

I understand you see yourself as part of the 1% here, amongst the few truly logical and rational thinkers, but how does that make you feel? Does it feel good? If only I could feel so unique and special.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-02-2017, 11:37 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-02-2017 10:11 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think the guy who imagines that atheism is the only conclusion one can derive using logic and reason, understands how logic works.

You're free to believe whatever you like.

(12-02-2017 10:11 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Clearly however he imagines it, it's not really how it works at all, when the actual application of it yields a plethora of results, and positions.

No, it doesn't.

If it did, you could show that it did.

But it doesn't.

So you can't.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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