Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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14-02-2017, 07:49 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 06:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sorry, I didn't notice you said "designed for us", rather than just designed. I believe the universe was designed I don't necessarily believe it was designed for us.

How does that sit with your Christianity then? If the universe wasn't designed for us then what's all the Jesus bullshit about?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-02-2017, 08:06 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 07:24 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  What gives you that impression Tom?

Is it the chaos? The meteors and comets hurtling through space crashing into other celestial bodies? The black holes swallowing up everything that gets too close? Is it the constant shifting of plates on the crust of planets or the volcanoes they create that release the pressures? Or is it the stars going super Nova and obliterating themselves and any other celestial bodies nearby? Help me out here.

A variety of things, such as the raw materials of the universe, when configured in such away is able to give rise to conscious self-aware creatures, produce a means for the universe to know itself, given enough time and space. Other than a universe by the nature of it's raw materials, is unable to produce anything other than mindless bacteria.

And this raw material, and it's natural algorithms, composed beings that are not just self aware, and conscious, but seek truth, goodness, purpose, and meaning with creative and moral capacities, with a nagging suspicion that life is more than the sum of it's parts. Whose basic mystery is not in the pursuit for survival, but in their pursuit of something to live for. That they perceive a moral oder, with moral obligations and duties, Beings whose suspicion is that we're a part of some story. And when they pen those stories, they start to converge on certain themes, and concepts, like sacrifice systems, the golden rule, savior, messianic figures etc...

That there's always this sort of moral pull, this sort of graviton to something, of how we ought to be, how we ought to treat others, even if we find ourselves unable to move in that direction, or firmly planted our feet in the crowd to avoid it. Or the importance the raw materials, and algorithms here placed on concept like love, of fundamental importance. In which it doesn't appear as a mere feeling, but a duty. In which the ramifications are life long, and can distort, and malform a person absent of it. You don't love your children you've crippled them severely. You don't love your siblings, that has life long negative ramifications on the both of you, etc...

That's just some of things that give me that impression, but in no ways an exhaustive list, just off the top of my head.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-02-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 07:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  How does that sit with your Christianity then? If the universe wasn't designed for us then what's all the Jesus bullshit about?

Surprisingly, I haven't been exposed to many Christians who claim that the universe was created for us, but rather often expressed that it exists for the glory of God. I hear the whole "designed for us" more from atheists, than actual Christians. Christians on the other hand like to remind us of the insignificance of man. A universe that reminds of that insignificance, is aligned with those expectations.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-02-2017, 08:33 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 07:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  How does that sit with your Christianity then? If the universe wasn't designed for us then what's all the Jesus bullshit about?

Surprisingly, I haven't been exposed to many Christians who claim that the universe was created for us, but rather often expressed that it exists for the glory of God. I hear the whole "designed for us" more from atheists, than actual Christians. Christians on the other hand like to remind us of the insignificance of man. A universe that reminds of that insignificance, is aligned with those expectations.

Ah but all that Jesus stuff... that was about salvation and what not to show God's glory right? Therefore the way that God shows his glory is by crucifying monkeys on some backwater planet in the middle of nowhere? And what, the celestial choir gives him a round of applause?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-02-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 07:24 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  What gives you that impression Tom?

Is it the chaos? The meteors and comets hurtling through space crashing into other celestial bodies? The black holes swallowing up everything that gets too close? Is it the constant shifting of plates on the crust of planets or the volcanoes they create that release the pressures? Or is it the stars going super Nova and obliterating themselves and any other celestial bodies nearby? Help me out here.

A variety of things, such as the raw materials of the universe, when configured in such away is able to give rise to conscious self-aware creatures, produce a means for the universe to know itself, given enough time and space. Other than a universe by the nature of it's raw materials, is unable to produce anything other than mindless bacteria.

And this raw material, and it's natural algorithms, composed beings that are not just self aware, and conscious, but seek truth, goodness, purpose, and meaning with creative and moral capacities, with a nagging suspicion that life is more than the sum of it's parts. Whose basic mystery is not in the pursuit for survival, but in their pursuit of something to live for. That they perceive a moral oder, with moral obligations and duties, Beings whose suspicion is that we're a part of some story. And when they pen those stories, they start to converge on certain themes, and concepts, like sacrifice systems, the golden rule, savior, messianic figures etc...

That there's always this sort of moral pull, this sort of graviton to something, of how we ought to be, how we ought to treat others, even if we find ourselves unable to move in that direction, or firmly planted our feet in the crowd to avoid it. Or the importance the raw materials, and algorithms here placed on concept like love, of fundamental importance. In which it doesn't appear as a mere feeling, but a duty. In which the ramifications are life long, and can distort, and malform a person absent of it. You don't love your children you've crippled them severely. You don't love your siblings, that has life long negative ramifications on the both of you, etc...

That's just some of things that give me that impression, but in no ways an exhaustive list, just off the top of my head.

To most of us the concept of long periods of time are incomprehensible, anything beyond our own lifespan is fuzzy, a millennium is spoken of but hardly understood and eons are unknowable. Yet we think we can place limits on what happens between chemicals and to organisms over that scale of time. Throw in unfathomable numbers of cells dividing and living and interacting and dividing and procreating and look at us now, thinking we are above the fray of abiogenesis and evolution and believe ourselves to be special and outside the natural world; how we deceive ourselves is comical. ~ FC

Does one apple in a vast orchard think as much of itself as we do?
Mark Twain

Human beings cannot comprehend very large or very small numbers. It would be useful for us to acknowledge that fact.
Daniel Kahneman - Nobel prize-winning psychologist

Holism has no evidentiary support. It doesn't work. Holism is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of those who have the hubris to think that they are an important part of some cosmic plan.
Victor Stenger

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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14-02-2017, 10:10 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 10:03 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  To most of us the concept of long periods of time are incomprehensible, anything beyond our own lifespan is fuzzy, a millennium is spoken of but hardly understood and eons are unknowable. Yet we think we can place limits on what happens between chemicals and to organisms over that scale of time. Throw in unfathomable numbers of cells dividing and living and interacting and dividing and procreating and look at us now, thinking we are above the fray of abiogenesis and evolution and believe ourselves to be special and outside the natural world; how we deceive ourselves is comical. ~ FC



I don't believe we're above the fray of abiogenesis and evolution, but that we're very much of product of them. Nor do I take any issue with the long periods of time any of these processes, or any precursor processes may have taken.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-02-2017, 10:20 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 08:33 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ah but all that Jesus stuff... that was about salvation and what not to show God's glory right? Therefore the way that God shows his glory is by crucifying monkeys on some backwater planet in the middle of nowhere?

Don't forget: Not only is he crucifying those monkeys to himself, he knew beforehand that he was going to crucify them.

(14-02-2017 08:33 AM)morondog Wrote:  And what, the celestial choir gives him a round of applause?

Hitchens was right. It makes you think of all the pictures of North Korea. All the generals and politicians surrounding the Glorious Leader, smiling and bowing and clapping.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-02-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 06:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Then you don't seem to be making much sense.

It is entirely possible to understand an argument without agreeing with it, Tom.

This is not a complicated issue.

(14-02-2017 06:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sorry, I didn't notice you said "designed for us", rather than just designed. I believe the universe was designed I don't necessarily believe it was designed for us.

The question still stands.

How would a universe that is designed look different from a universe that is not?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-02-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 07:24 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  What gives you that impression Tom?

A variety of things, such as the raw materials of the universe

The existence of matter does not imply design.

(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  when configured in such away is able to give rise to conscious self-aware creatures

Abiogenesis and the existence of consciousness do not imply design.

(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  produce a means for the universe to know itself

Gibberish.

(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Other than a universe by the nature of it's raw materials, is unable to produce anything other than mindless bacteria.

Demonstrably false.

(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And this raw material, and it's natural algorithms, composed beings that are not just self aware, and conscious, but seek truth, goodness, purpose, and meaning with creative and moral capacities, with a nagging suspicion that life is more than the sum of it's parts. Whose basic mystery is not in the pursuit for survival, but in their pursuit of something to live for. That they perceive a moral oder, with moral obligations and duties, Beings whose suspicion is that we're a part of some story. And when they pen those stories, they start to converge on certain themes, and concepts, like sacrifice systems, the golden rule, savior, messianic figures etc...

None of which implies design, even if taken as universally true - which it isn't.

(14-02-2017 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That there's always this sort of moral pull

No.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-02-2017, 05:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 12:53 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Hmm, virtually 100% of the universe is deadly to us. That is one shit designer.

Virtually? The traces that ought to be habitable are packed with lunatics who'll stab you with jagged bits of metal for believing in the wrong imaginary friend. That goes slap through incompetence to the wonderful land of malice aforethought.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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