Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
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14-02-2017, 05:55 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 10:58 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It is entirely possible to understand an argument without agreeing with it, Tom.

This is not a complicated issue.

It's also entirely possible to not understand a view, and act as if you do.

You say you don't agree with them, but it's not clear what you disagreement here is. So don't just tell me you disagree with them, express what your actual disagreement is.

SO i'll ask the question again, in hopes that this time you actually answer it:

"You claim you get it, what exactly do you think you get? And what exactly do you think you don't agree with them about?

You get why nature appears designed to them, even though they know it's not? What do you disagree with? That they don't see this appearance of design? Or are you saying you get why they see it, but just don't see it personally? "

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-02-2017, 06:05 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 05:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You say you don't agree with them, but it's not clear what you disagreement here is.

I don't care, Tom. I don't care if you don't understand why I disagree with your mischaracterization of Dawkins. I don't care if you don't understand why I don't take the same angle of attack towards teleology that other atheists do.

I don't care about your speculation of my quality of life. I don't care about your inquiries about autism. I don't care about your delusions of academic support. I don't care about any of your hypotheticals or straw men.

I. Do not. Care.

And this is why I continue to ignore it when you post it. Because I don't care. And because it doesn't matter. At all.

You are not speaking with Dawkins. You are not speaking with your hypothetical professors. You are speaking with me.

And if your position has any merit to it whatsoever, then none of the above matters in the slightest, because you can demonstrate its validity regardless of any of that.

So I ask you again, Tom: in what way do you claim that a designed universe would differ from one that is not designed?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-02-2017, 07:43 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 06:05 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I don't care, Tom. I don't care if you don't understand why I disagree with your mischaracterization of Dawkins. I don't care if you don't understand why I don't take the same angle of attack towards teleology that other atheists do.

Well, I care, it helps to clear up some aspects of your argument. You say you disagree, but I want to know why you disagree? I'm not sure why you don't want to answer the question posed to you. Was it a hard question?

You also accused me of mischaracterizing Dawkins, not sure how, but this is something you frequently do. You accuse me of mischaracterizing, but don't actually explain what that mischaracterization is. You claim you disagree, but you don't actually explain what your disagreement is.

Quote:You are not speaking with Dawkins. You are not speaking with your hypothetical professors. You are speaking with me.

Yes, and you claimed you disagree, that's why I'm asking you what your disagreement is. So I'll ask the question the third time, in hopes that you answer it:

"You claim you get it, what exactly do you think you get? And what exactly do you think you don't agree with them about?

You get why nature appears designed to them, even though they know it's not? What do you disagree with? That they don't see this appearance of design? Or are you saying you get why they see it, but just don't see it personally? "

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-02-2017, 09:53 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 07:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, I care, it helps to clear up some aspects of your argument.

I haven't made an argument, Tom. There is no argument to discuss.

You assert that your belief in teleology is rational. I have asked you to support this assertion. You have run about in circles bringing up Dawkins, questioning whether or not I am autistic, and trying to prove the existence of some magical non-rational means of ascertaining truth. I have repeatedly smacked down these points as irrelevant and-slash-or incorrect.

This is the extent of the discussion thus far. Stop trying to act as though you have any idea of what anyone else's position here is. You are always - I repeat, always - wrong.

If you wish to support your assertion, then answer the question.

How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-02-2017, 10:30 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 09:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?

He cannot answer that, ergo why he doesn't. Drinking Beverage

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14-02-2017, 11:32 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 09:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You assert that your belief in teleology is rational. I have asked you to support this assertion.

As I said it's perfectly logical to infer from the appearance of design, that something is designed, even if the conclusion is false.

You disagree that there's an appearance of design, though it's not clear as to how you actually disagree. In fact you claimed that you disagreed with atheists like Dawkins and Dennet, who acknowledge the appearance of design. But refused to expound on that disagreement.

Quote:You have run about in circles bringing up Dawkins, questioning whether or not I am autistic, and trying to prove the existence of some magical non-rational means of ascertaining truth. I have repeatedly smacked down these points as irrelevant and-slash-or incorrect.

I'm just chasing after you. You claim you disagreed with not just me, but Dawkins, Dennett, on the appearance of design. And have yet to explain your disagreement. Perhaps you don't understand why this question is relevant, but it's entirely relevant, whether you understand the purpose of the question or not.

Quote:This is the extent of the discussion thus far. Stop trying to act as though you have any idea of what anyone else's position here is. You are always - I repeat, always - wrong.

Like I said, I have no idea what you disagreement, I also have no idea whether you understand the meaning of appearance of design, even though you said you do. Hence why I've given you several opportunities to explain you disagreement.

SO here's the questions again for the 4th time: "You claim you get it, what exactly do you think you get? And what exactly do you think you don't agree with them about?

You get why nature appears designed to them, even though they know it's not? What do you disagree with? That they don't see this appearance of design? Or are you saying you get why they see it, but just don't see it personally? "


Quote:How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?

I already told you, that my previous response still applied, in fact you can add a universe absent of all the aspects I mentioned earlier as well.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-02-2017, 11:48 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 09:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You assert that your belief in teleology is rational. I have asked you to support this assertion.
As I said it's perfectly logical to infer from the appearance of design, that something is designed, even if the conclusion is false.

You disagree that there's an appearance of design, though it's not clear as to how you actually disagree. In fact you claimed that you disagreed with atheists like Dawkins and Dennet, who acknowledge the appearance of design. But refused to expound on that disagreement.


Translation - It looks designed because I say so, and no, I won't tell you why I think it looks designed.

(Because he can't, he doesn't actually know enough to distinguish between one or the other, Tommyboy is just running his mouth.)


(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:You have run about in circles bringing up Dawkins, questioning whether or not I am autistic, and trying to prove the existence of some magical non-rational means of ascertaining truth. I have repeatedly smacked down these points as irrelevant and-slash-or incorrect.
I'm just chasing after you. You claim you disagreed with not just me, but Dawkins, Dennett, on the appearance of design. And have yet to explain your disagreement. Perhaps you don't understand why this question is relevant, but it's entirely relevant, whether you understand the purpose of the question or not.


Translation - I'm not going to tell you why my topic shift is important, but it is, trust me.

(No it's not. It's obfuscation for the express purpose of distraction, lest we remember how inept he is as determining between designed and not-designed things.)


(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:This is the extent of the discussion thus far. Stop trying to act as though you have any idea of what anyone else's position here is. You are always - I repeat, always - wrong.
Like I said, I have no idea what you disagreement, I also have no idea whether you understand the meaning of appearance of design, even though you said you do. Hence why I've given you several opportunities to explain you disagreement.

SO here's the questions again for the 4th time: "You claim you get it, what exactly do you think you get? And what exactly do you think you don't agree with them about?

You get why nature appears designed to them, even though they know it's not? What do you disagree with? That they don't see this appearance of design? Or are you saying you get why they see it, but just don't see it personally? "


Translation - I'm not going to defend my assertion, rather I'm going to project my failings onto you and attack you for them, because it typically makes a good distraction to hide my own ineptitude.

(Because Tommyboy has no feet to stand on, because he still refuses to explain how he knows the difference between a designed world and a not designed one, not that it stops him form trying to undermine those questioning his baseless assertions. And they are baseless Tommyboy, because you refuse to substantiate them with anything more than empty opinions.)



(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?
I already told you, that my previous response still applied, in fact you can add a universe absent of all the aspects I mentioned earlier as well.


Translation - Because pretending like I already supplied a sufficient answer gives the patina of honest certitude without needing to do the actual work to demonstrate it.

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15-02-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
I have, once again, snipped all the pointless meandering, strawmanning, and repetition.

(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You disagree that there's an appearance of design, though it's not clear as to how you actually disagree.

I disagree that there is an appearance of design. Flatly. Full stop.

This is not complicated.

If you wish to assert that there is, then answer the question.

(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?

I already told you, that my previous response still applied

No, you didn't.

And that response was worthless to begin with, as none of those elements imply design.

(14-02-2017 11:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  in fact you can add a universe absent of all the aspects I mentioned earlier as well.

Which also fails to imply design.

Try again, Tom. How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-02-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(14-02-2017 11:48 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Translation - It looks designed because I say so, and no, I won't tell you why I think it looks designed.

(Because he can't, he doesn't actually know enough to distinguish between one or the other, Tommyboy is just running his mouth.)


It looks designed, even if may not actually be designed. A point that plenty of more competent atheists like Dawkins, Dennett readily acknowledge. If people from a wide spectrum agree that something at the very least appears to look a certain away, like Zooey Saldana and Thandie Newton looking alike, than they likely do look very much like each other. It’s a widely acknowledged perception, even if it’s also considered a false one.

In fact I find it rather weird that people like yourself don’t see the appearance of design.
Which is sort of like pointing to that natural sphinx in Pakistan, and you claiming you don’t see the resemblance between it an actual sphinx. I’m curious as to why that is. Why Dawkins, and Dennett can see the appearance of design as something abundantly obvious, but you fail to see anything at all.

Quote:Translation - I'm not going to tell you why my topic shift is important, but it is, trust me.

It’s important because we’re talking about the appearance of design. And that fact that someone disagrees with this, but finds himself unable or unwilling to express what exactly his disagreement is.

Quote:Translation - Because pretending like I already supplied a sufficient answer gives the patina of honest certitude without needing to do the actual work to demonstrate it.

I supplied an answer, regardless of whether you think it’s sufficient. But it is weird situation that I find myself in with you and Unbeliever as well. It’s not like arguing that the natural sphinx was designed, but trying to get you to acknowledge that the natural sphinx looks like a sphinx. Which in some way seems like trying to convince a blindman to see a color.

Complicated even more so, by the reluctance of individuals like unbeliever to clarify his disagreements. If I’m supposed to get in to your head, and rework your perception, I’m gonna have to see what’s in there first. But if you’re unwilling to do that, then I can’t force a horse to drink.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 12:35 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 12:25 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Try again, Tom. How would a designed universe differ from one that is not?

A designed universe would be cuddly, and would make me feel that everything's going to be OK. Oh WHY won't you agree with me?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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