Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
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15-02-2017, 02:58 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2017 03:03 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
I've asked time and again what a non-designed reality would be like. I never get a proper answer.

I only ever get meaningless answers like it would be "worse" or "simpler" or "could never happen" or whatever.

The fact is, we have exactly one point of data, our reality. We don't know its origins, so we don't know if it was designed or not. We have nothing to compare it to. Some people try to compare it to parts of itself of course, which is totally flawed (fallacy of composition).

I would expect a universe designed for us to be immensely superior to this garbage we have been served up. We're stuck to a rock unable to investigate almost all of it, and we have to keep eating and breathing or we die. And that's if we don't die in one of a multitude of other hllarious ways. To say this is designed, to me, is to say the designer is sick and twisted. I rather doubt the scope of imagination of anyone who can't think of a better place than this.

It's much more plausible, assuming for a moment our reality is designed, that it was for some other purpose such as an experiment. We're just an insignificant byproduct.

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15-02-2017, 07:36 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 12:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It looks designed, even if may not actually be designed.

How does it look designed, Tom?

What difference do you claim there would be between a universe that is designed and one that is not?

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15-02-2017, 08:13 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 07:36 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  How does it look designed, Tom?
I'm not sure how to exactly explain that to you, because it's not even clear to me what you disagree with, even in regards to other atheists who concede this appearance.

My assumption here, is that you do see it, or else it wouldn't really make sense to say you get why Dawkins and Dennett see it. But you don't want to acknowledge it, because it might be problematic for some of your other suggestions.

But since you don't want to work with me here, and refuse to answer fairly straightforward clariffing questions, then we've stuck what seems to be an impenetrable impasse, on of your own creation.

But here I'll give you a fifth opportunity to respond:""You claim you get it, what exactly do you think you get? And what exactly do you think you don't agree with them about?

You get why nature appears designed to them, even though they know it's not? What do you disagree with? That they don't see this appearance of design? Or are you saying you get why they see it, but just don't see it personally? "

Quote:What difference do you claim there would be between a universe that is designed and one that is not?

Already answered. You responded with a " as none of those elements imply design.". In fact you even disagreed with Dawkins, Dennet, that anything in nature appears designed, though I'm still waiting on you to expand on your disagreement. Not sure why you keep refusing to do this, other than a tactical reason on your part.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 08:35 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
When Dawkins refers to the appearance of design it is for example honeycombs or crystals that he references (IIRC, I read his stuff a long time ago, I find him a bit dull TBH) - things that have regular shape which does not look "natural", but he then goes on to explain how these things arise naturally without the need of intelligent guidance.

So the question is, how can one *tell* if the universe is designed? Or even, what makes it have the *appearance* of design? I surely can say that nothing that I've ever seen makes me think the universe "looks" designed, so if anyone sees the appearance of design it's you Tommy. What can you cite that gives you that impression?

One might for example (I guess) point to the regular spiral shapes of galaxies, or...? What else? But galaxies we certainly cannot positively conclude are designed, given what we know of celestial mechanics etc.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-02-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 08:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  When Dawkins refers to the appearance of design it is for example honeycombs or crystals that he references (IIRC, I read his stuff a long time ago, I find him a bit dull TBH) - things that have regular shape which does not look "natural", but he then goes on to explain how these things arise naturally without the need of intelligent guidance.

So the question is, how can one *tell* if the universe is designed? Or even, what makes it have the *appearance* of design? I surely can say that nothing that I've ever seen makes me think the universe "looks" designed, so if anyone sees the appearance of design it's you Tommy. What can you cite that gives you that impression?

Good.

Dawkins in your honeycomb example acknowledges that it appears designed, and explains that it's actually not designed, that this perception is wrong.

Do you agree with him, that the honeycomb appears designed, even though it's not?

If you agree with him that it does appear designed. Think of the question you just asked me, why does it appear designed to you?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 08:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 08:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  When Dawkins refers to the appearance of design it is for example honeycombs or crystals that he references (IIRC, I read his stuff a long time ago, I find him a bit dull TBH) - things that have regular shape which does not look "natural", but he then goes on to explain how these things arise naturally without the need of intelligent guidance.

So the question is, how can one *tell* if the universe is designed? Or even, what makes it have the *appearance* of design? I surely can say that nothing that I've ever seen makes me think the universe "looks" designed, so if anyone sees the appearance of design it's you Tommy. What can you cite that gives you that impression?

Good.

Dawkins in your honeycomb example acknowledges that it appears designed, and explains that it's actually not designed, that this perception is wrong.

Do you agree with him, that the honeycomb appears designed, even though it's not?

If you agree with him that it does appear designed. Think of the question you just asked me, why does it appear designed to you?

You are committing the fallacy of composition, or are about to.
That some aspect of the natural world has some appearance of design does not mean that the universe does.
There are so many opportunities for chance appearance that of course some things have an appearance of design. You cannot generalize that to everything being designed.
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15-02-2017, 09:45 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 08:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 07:36 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  How does it look designed, Tom?
I'm not sure how to exactly explain that to you, because it's not even clear to me what you disagree with, even in regards to other atheists who concede this appearance.

That is the whole point, Tom. I cannot disagree with anything, because you have not established what there is to disagree with. There is no coherent definition of what a designed universe would look like, and thus, it is nonsensical to say that the universe looks designed.

(15-02-2017 08:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My assumption here, is

Wrong. Your assumption is wrong, Tom. Your assumptions are always wrong.

Stop assuming things about your opponent's positions. It always, always makes you look like an arrogant idiot.

I have ignored your questions about Dawkins because they are irrelevant, not because they are difficult or problematic. Dawkins chooses to attack teleology by showing how each thing that it claims is an example of design is, in fact, natural. I choose to attack it by pointing out that its very basis is incoherent. I understand his position and consider it a stronger rhetorical tool than the one that I employ, but as I am not particularly concerned with converting you, I don't care about rhetoric here, and choose to take the stricter route.

And all of this is, again, utterly irrelevant, because Dawkins' argumentation is not my argumentation, and is thus not at all connected to this discussion. I am not required to adopt his method of attack - but, if you wish to defend teleology, you must be capable of dealing with his as well as mine.

Dawkins deals with your conclusions.

I deal with your premises.

You fail on both counts.

(15-02-2017 08:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:What difference do you claim there would be between a universe that is designed and one that is not?

Already answered. You responded with a " as none of those elements imply design."

Because they don't. You have utterly failed to do anything other than assert that they do, without any justification whatsoever. You have, in fact, attempted to answer "what about the universe makes you think it was designed?" with "all these things that don't in any way require or imply design".

And then further attempted to expand this to include a hypothetical universe in which none of these things are true, broadening your answer to what is functionally "any universe, regardless of its characteristics, would look designed to me".

This is not a coherent position.

Because you still won't understand this, though, I will spell it out for you. Define your terms, Tom. You have to establish how design would be at all distinguishable from a lack of it before you can start claiming to have evidence of it. Simply saying "X is evidence of design" is not enough. You have to show how. You have to do something other than run about in circles waving your hands and screeching about how it's "so obvious".

If design is obvious, then you can tell us what to look for and why.

But, as always, you can't.

Because it isn't.

So you won't.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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15-02-2017, 10:01 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 09:45 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  That is the whole point, Tom. I cannot disagree with anything, because you have not established what there is to disagree with. There is no coherent definition of what a designed universe would look like, and thus, it is nonsensical to say that the universe looks designed.

You stated you disagreed with Dawkins and Dennett. So you'd already disagreed, and stated you understand what it is you disagree with. What you haven't done, is explain your disagreement, or expressed your understanding here.

SO here's the question again, regarding a view you stated you already disagree with, (not one that you cannot disagree with): "You claim you get it, what exactly do you think you get? And what exactly do you think you don't agree with them about?

You get why nature appears designed to them, even though they know it's not? What do you disagree with? That they don't see this appearance of design? Or are you saying you get why they see it, but just don't see it personally? "

Quote:I have ignored your questions about Dawkins because they are irrelevant,

Except they're entirely relevant to your claim that you disagree. The nature of the disagreement remains entirely unknown, because for whatever odd reason you keep refusing to share it, which is kind of funny, but interesting.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 09:39 AM)Rik Wrote:  You are committing the fallacy of composition, or are about to.
That some aspect of the natural world has some appearance of design does not mean that the universe does.
There are so many opportunities for chance appearance that of course some things have an appearance of design. You cannot generalize that to everything being designed.

Why does a honeycomb appear designed but not the universe?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 09:39 AM)Rik Wrote:  You are committing the fallacy of composition, or are about to.
That some aspect of the natural world has some appearance of design does not mean that the universe does.
There are so many opportunities for chance appearance that of course some things have an appearance of design. You cannot generalize that to everything being designed.

Why does a honeycomb appear designed but not the universe?

Because the universe does not have the regular pattern of construction that a honeycomb has?! Was that a serious question?
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