Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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15-02-2017, 10:37 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You stated you disagreed with Dawkins and Dennett. So you'd already disagreed, and stated you understand what it is you disagree with. What you haven't done, is explain your disagreement, or expressed your understanding here.

Reread the post that you just ignored.

Then answer the question.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-02-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:28 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 10:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why does a honeycomb appear designed but not the universe?

Because the universe does not have the regular pattern of construction that a honeycomb has?! Was that a serious question?

Except the universe contains all these regular patterns of construction. In fact the universe is an infinitely more complex, deep, intricate pattern of construction than the honeycomb could ever be. If a man creates something resembling a honey comb that might be cool, but if man could designed a universe like ours, no other designed thing would ever compare, the feat of all feats.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 10:28 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Because the universe does not have the regular pattern of construction that a honeycomb has?! Was that a serious question?

Except the universe contains all these regular patterns of construction. In fact the universe is an infinitely more complex, deep, intricate pattern of construction than the honeycomb could ever be.

And it does not follow that regular or complex structures imply design.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-02-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:49 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And it does not follow that regular or complex structures imply design.

Yet the Honeycomb does?

Are you acknowledging like others here have, who are a couple steps ahead of you at this point, that a Honeycomb does give an appearance of design?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 10:53 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 10:28 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Because the universe does not have the regular pattern of construction that a honeycomb has?! Was that a serious question?

Except the universe contains all these regular patterns of construction. In fact the universe is an infinitely more complex, deep, intricate pattern of construction than the honeycomb could ever be. If a man creates something resembling a honey comb that might be cool, but if man could designed a universe like ours, no other designed thing would ever compare, the feat of all feats.

I thought we were talking about appearances. Looking at each, the honeycomb looks more designed because of the regular, repeating pattern of construction.
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15-02-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:53 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  I thought we were talking about appearances.

I am, just the appearance. We can continue to disagree on actual design, but at perhaps find some shared ground with appearance.

Quote:Looking at each, the honeycomb looks more designed because of the regular, repeating pattern of construction.

Do you mean the symmetry of the honeycomb, is what gives that appearance?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 10:49 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And it does not follow that regular or complex structures imply design.

Yet the Honeycomb does?

The honeycomb does not imply design. The honeycomb is demonstrably designed, if you consider bees intelligent enough to count as designers, and is demonstrably natural if you do not.

This is the point, Tom. One of the many that you continuously miss.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-02-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are you acknowledging like others here have, who are a couple steps ahead of you at this point, that a Honeycomb does give an appearance of design?

The "appearance" of design has nothing at all to do with actual design, either by man or by nature.

This is a phosphorus pentafluoride molecule, which is a geometrically perfect trigonal bipyramid...


[Image: 800px-Trigonal-bipyramidal-3D-balls.png]

Obviously this gives the "appearance" of design so I'd like you to tell me Tom who you think "designed" it—man, nature, or your god?


Huh

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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15-02-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Threads with Tommys participation usually hve two effects on me.

#1 I feel a lot dumber after reading Tommys posts
#2 I fele the urge to take a shower, even if i just came from the shower

Now, lets do something about this by adding some substance again to this thread. Lets see what somebody has to say about the topics discussed. Somebody who is fundamentally different from Tommy, because he is
#1 competent
#2 honest








Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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16-02-2017, 01:15 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(15-02-2017 10:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 09:39 AM)Rik Wrote:  You are committing the fallacy of composition, or are about to.
That some aspect of the natural world has some appearance of design does not mean that the universe does.
There are so many opportunities for chance appearance that of course some things have an appearance of design. You cannot generalize that to everything being designed.

Why does a honeycomb appear designed but not the universe?

Even if it was explicitly designed - if bees were super intelligent architects - the fact that a honeycomb appears similar to things that humans design in no way says anything about the universe.

If you can't establish criteria by which you judge that the universe is designed - if you can't say "A not-designed universe would have X characteristics while a designed universe would have Y characteristics, and we observe Y hence we conclude that we live in a designed universe"... If you can't do that then you cannot conclude that we live in a designed universe.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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