Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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12-10-2016, 07:31 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 07:23 AM)skyking Wrote:  I find it humorous that somebody that wants to redefine the definitions with regards to themselves, puts up a black and white two answer poll. I refer back to my first post.
Putting people in little boxes is a futile exercise. They are usually too messy to fit in Big Grin

Dunno, once watched a factory butcher using his bandsaw. Very neat and tidy...

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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12-10-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 06:58 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The God that exists is a form of viral meme. A much clearer expression is that no god exists outside of self. Smartass

Except my Gwynnies, of course. Big Grin
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That's got it.

#sigh
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12-10-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 07:01 AM)Jesster Wrote:  Label yourself however you want. I don't care. I would label you as an agnostic atheist. That just means you don't believe in a god but you don't know whether or not it exists. You either actively believe (theist) or you don't (atheist). Knowledge (gnostic or agnostic) is a separate matter. I know you don't care about my definition either. Where does that leave us then?

Well what I meant by my last statement was that you can make a case that your definition is better, but don't say, "your definition is wrong because this is the correct definition". You had explained your definition and then I explained mine. I was feeling lazy and didn't want to respond to the points that made your definition so I just left it at "I have my definition, you have yours". Where does that leave us now? Well I'm not entirely interested in debating this right now so I'd leave this alone for now. However, I do think figuring out meanings and usages of terms are important so it's an open discussion.
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12-10-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 07:04 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 06:48 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I recognize my definitions are not held among others but I don't really care because I think mine are valid. You can argue that it's not valid, but don't do so by using your own definition.

So you are allowed to use your own definitions but someone who is arguing against you is not?

No, we are both allowed to use our own definitions as we go about, as long as we aren't accusing others of being something that they do not identify as. I say I'm agnostic. You can think I'm agnostic atheist but I think somebody's identity should be respected. Just like how theists shouldn't call "agnostic atheists" agnostic, atheists shouldn't call "agnostics" agnostic atheist. But of course you could always argue which definitions you think are better.
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12-10-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 06:48 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  ...there was a significant change in my views that required me to abandon the "atheist" label. Specifically, when I discovered good reasons to believe in a god.

What did you discover?

I don't think that's too relevant to this discussion right now, so I'll save that for a later time. But if you want a little more, I became convinced that there is more to reality than this universe and that opened up a lot of possibilities.
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12-10-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 07:23 AM)skyking Wrote:  I find it humorous that somebody that wants to redefine the definitions with regards to themselves, puts up a black and white two answer poll. I refer back to my first post.
Putting people in little boxes is a futile exercise. They are usually too messy to fit in Big Grin

Interestingly, it's atheists that usually put people into boxes. Usually, they set up the definition theist is "believe X" and atheist is "believe not X" and do not allow people to identify as an agnostic middle ground. Jesster, for example, uses the dichotomic definition of theist-atheist and so labels me an atheist. Granted, she doesn't impose that on me, but other atheists do. Also, I didn't say that everybody has to be one or the other. I clearly stated that one could not understand or not accept the question and so shouldn't have to answer. Aside from that, I'm not going to argue against me "putting people into boxes", but I will ask you to observe the same behavior among other atheists.
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12-10-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 06:48 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 10:20 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Yours is a problematic definition of agnosticism. Agnostics do not believe in the existence of gods—as you apparently do half of the time.

Agnosticism is the position of believing that knowledge of the existence or non-existence of god is impossible. It's often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism. Understood this way, agnosticism is skepticism regarding all things theological. The agnostic holds that human knowledge is limited to the natural world, that the mind is incapable of knowledge of the supernatural. Understood this way, an agnostic could also be a theist or an atheist. The former is called a fideist—one who believes in god purely on faith. The agnostic-atheist simply finds no compelling reason to believe in god.

There are many different usages of "agnostic". The strict Huxley definition has lost usage over time so I don't feel the need to refer to it and I'd expect most people wouldn't assume it anyway. I tend to use it as a "middle ground" between theism and atheism because (1) it's popular and (2) there was a significant change in my views that required me to abandon the "atheist" label. Specifically, when I discovered good reasons to believe in a god. I'm not committed to believing or disbelieving in god concepts and so I remove myself from the atheist and theist labels. I recognize my definitions are not held among others but I don't really care because I think mine are valid. You can argue that it's not valid, but don't do so by using your own definition.

It's not a middle-ground or an either/or... I call myself an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism is a position on whether or not the answer to the question is even knowable. I don't think we have the means to actually detect things beyond the natural, and as far as I can tell no one has provided evidence of anything supernatural that can't be better-explained some other way. Since there is no reliable way of actually bringing evidence to bear on this question, I don't think we can know the answer for sure. Thus, I am an agnostic.

Atheism is an opinion on the (unknown) fact. People assert that there are various kinds of God/gods/goddesses/spirits, and for a number of reasons it is clear to me that they are all the inventions of human imagination. Thus, I am an atheist.

I am quite fond of Stephen F. Roberts' quote on this topic:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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12-10-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
One of my favorites too. It answers every theist's questions universally.
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12-10-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 08:41 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  What did you discover?

I became convinced that there is more to reality than this universe and that opened up a lot of possibilities.

Phencyclidine is a hell of a drug.

#sigh
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12-10-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 08:41 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  What did you discover?

I don't think that's too relevant to this discussion right now, so I'll save that for a later time. But if you want a little more, I became convinced that there is more to reality than this universe and that opened up a lot of possibilities.

Looking at your other thread:

(12-10-2016 09:23 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I don't know if I can say they lead directly into me thinking "Hey, a god can exist", but they did influence my worldview which eventually adopted an idea of god.

And the title of your other thread:

Quote:Hello, from an ex-atheist

I don't think that it is fair for you to object to people calling your beliefs deistic. You may not like the label, but it fits the definition.

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