Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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12-10-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 09:37 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 08:41 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I don't think that's too relevant to this discussion right now, so I'll save that for a later time. But if you want a little more, I became convinced that there is more to reality than this universe and that opened up a lot of possibilities.

Looking at your other thread:

(12-10-2016 09:23 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I don't know if I can say they lead directly into me thinking "Hey, a god can exist", but they did influence my worldview which eventually adopted an idea of god.

And the title of your other thread:

Quote:Hello, from an ex-atheist

I don't think that it is fair for you to object to people calling your beliefs deistic. You may not like the label, but it fits the definition.

I hear what you are saying, but does it really matter what he or she identifies with? I personally don't like labels, but if someone wants to use one for themselves, then it should be their decision re: what label they use. I am more interested in hearing more about what drove UKD to his current set of "beliefs."
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12-10-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 09:37 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 08:41 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I don't know if I can say they lead directly into me thinking "Hey, a god can exist", but they did influence my worldview which eventually adopted an idea of god.

I don't think that it is fair for you to object to people calling your beliefs deistic. You may not like the label, but it fits the definition.

By "adopted an idea of god" I meant to say that I rejected the improbability of god. I'm using probability because I always knew a god was possible, but I use to think it was improbable. Currently, I don't think that it is improbable. That doesn't mean I think it's probable that god exists, the same way saying "I don't think that god exists" doesn't mean "I think no god exists" (which is the core element of this poll).
Now, I should explain what I mean when I talk about god. A god simply defined as "a causal force" to the universe I would say I believe exists, even if it's not wholly justified. However, is simply "a causal force" worthy to be called god? Does it need intelligence? And if it does require intelligence, then I can not say that I currently believe that god exists. BUT I also don't believe that it doesn't exist, that is, I'm not sure that it doesn't exist. To some people, that makes me an atheist. To me, the fact that I'm not convinced it doesn't exist makes me agnostic.
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12-10-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 11:01 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I hear what you are saying, but does it really matter what he or she identifies with? I personally don't like labels, but if someone wants to use one for themselves, then it should be their decision re: what label they use.

It's simply a matter of keeping any potential discussions on track and as clear as possible. If we can't agree on the definitions of basic terms then more complicated discussions are going to be extremely difficult.

(12-10-2016 11:01 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I am more interested in hearing more about what drove UKD to his current set of "beliefs."

I am willing to listen, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the conversation.
Smile

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12-10-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 11:32 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  By "adopted an idea of god" I meant to say that I rejected the improbability of god. I'm using probability because I always knew a god was possible, but I use to think it was improbable. Currently, I don't think that it is improbable. That doesn't mean I think it's probable that god exists, the same way saying "I don't think that god exists" doesn't mean "I think no god exists" (which is the core element of this poll).

Not knowing something to be impossible is not the same as knowing it to be possible. How did you determine that a god was possible?

Quote:Now, I should explain what I mean when I talk about god. A god simply defined as "a causal force" to the universe I would say I believe exists, even if it's not wholly justified. However, is simply "a causal force" worthy to be called god? Does it need intelligence? And if it does require intelligence, then I can not say that I currently believe that god exists. BUT I also don't believe that it doesn't exist, that is, I'm not sure that it doesn't exist. To some people, that makes me an atheist. To me, the fact that I'm not convinced it doesn't exist makes me agnostic.

Using the label 'god' for whatever is the cause of the universe as we understand it today whether that force has intelligence or not is misleading at best.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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12-10-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 11:56 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 11:01 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I hear what you are saying, but does it really matter what he or she identifies with? I personally don't like labels, but if someone wants to use one for themselves, then it should be their decision re: what label they use.

It's simply a matter of keeping any potential discussions on track and as clear as possible. If we can't agree on the definitions of basic terms then more complicated discussions are going to be extremely difficult.

(12-10-2016 11:01 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I am more interested in hearing more about what drove UKD to his current set of "beliefs."

I am willing to listen, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the conversation.
Smile

I agree--in a debate format. But, if it's just a friendly discussion of beliefs and philosophies--then focusing on labels takes away from the actual meat (I'd rather say tofu since I'm vegan Tongue ) of the convo. Anyway, it's just my two cents Big Grin
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12-10-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 11:32 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 09:37 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I don't think that it is fair for you to object to people calling your beliefs deistic. You may not like the label, but it fits the definition.

By "adopted an idea of god" I meant to say that I rejected the improbability of god. I'm using probability because I always knew a god was possible, but I use to think it was improbable. Currently, I don't think that it is improbable. That doesn't mean I think it's probable that god exists, the same way saying "I don't think that god exists" doesn't mean "I think no god exists" (which is the core element of this poll).
Now, I should explain what I mean when I talk about god. A god simply defined as "a causal force" to the universe I would say I believe exists, even if it's not wholly justified. However, is simply "a causal force" worthy to be called god? Does it need intelligence? And if it does require intelligence, then I can not say that I currently believe that god exists. BUT I also don't believe that it doesn't exist, that is, I'm not sure that it doesn't exist. To some people, that makes me an atheist. To me, the fact that I'm not convinced it doesn't exist makes me agnostic.

Ok. That clarifies your position.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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12-10-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(11-10-2016 04:30 PM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 04:02 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Did you have doubts that people would ether A. Rejent the idea. B. or require a large amount of proof?
When did you start believing a god existed? Which one?

I'm not sure I understand your second questions. Reject what idea? Require a large amount of proof for what?

I think I may have just misunderstood. I saw the title For Atheists: Do you Believe no god(s) exist? Didn't seem like a question someone that identified as being or ever had been an atheist would ask. It's pretty clear cut.

(11-10-2016 04:30 PM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  Well, I don't believe in a god. I've identified as agnostic for almost a year now, after being agnostic atheist for about 5. I'm agnostic because I'm about equally convinced that a god could or couldn't exist, that god being solely a causal, possibly-though-currently-unlikely intelligent force to the universe. So more of a deistic kind. Hope that satiates your curiosity.

Oh this is the bit.

I may have picked it up from other one of your posts.

Ok so you said you saw yourself as and agnostic atheist. And you don't believe in a god. You then pulled back to a more middle of the road. I understand that feeling of uncertainty. When I was going threw that period of transition. I always had that voice in the back of my mind (what if you're wrong) Now I was raised catholic so the reminded of ethereal torturer was often a fear drill into our heads.

So as much as I understand you don't believe (for certain) What I'm trying to pick at is the reasons that brought you to that possibly It maybe.

For example I believe in Extra Terrestrial Life. (Just not intelligent alien visitation) My basis for this belief is I live on a planet that has life. I live on a planet that's an example that life is possible. Knowing the how expansive the universe can be I concluded that even if the number is small there may be another planet out their that has some sort of animal like species on it. Is it smarter then us, more advance, more violent. (Fuck if I know)

So when this concept of god is applied it has many attachments to it. none of which have any thing that I have seen that can be demonstrated in any way.

So i'm just curious of your perspective. From the great watch maker stand point (deism) What ideas lurk that makes you think a god (in any way) would be possible?

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12-10-2016, 04:26 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 12:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Not knowing something to be impossible is not the same as knowing it to be possible. How did you determine that a god was possible?
...
Using the label 'god' for whatever is the cause of the universe as we understand it today whether that force has intelligence or not is misleading at best.

First of all, I probably should have said believe it to be possible, but I think the overall point is the same. Even when I was atheist, I believed a deistic god is possible because I thought an idea such as "god existing outside of the universe" wasn't impossible simply out of our human ignorance. And if it wasn't impossible, then it was possible. Outside of the universe would mean that the god wouldn't be bound by our laws of physics and so could have properties that don't make sense in our universe.

I guess I can see how what I'm labeling "god" might not be labelled "god" to others, but I don't see the significance of such a point. Who am I being misleading to, and why should that affect my beliefs? I'm not saying there's not an answer, but I am somewhat curious.
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12-10-2016, 04:30 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 04:26 PM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 12:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Not knowing something to be impossible is not the same as knowing it to be possible. How did you determine that a god was possible?
...
Using the label 'god' for whatever is the cause of the universe as we understand it today whether that force has intelligence or not is misleading at best.

First of all, I probably should have said believe it to be possible, but I think the overall point is the same. Even when I was atheist, I believed a deistic god is possible because I thought an idea such as "god existing outside of the universe" wasn't impossible simply out of our human ignorance. And if it wasn't impossible, then it was possible. Outside of the universe would mean that the god wouldn't be bound by our laws of physics and so could have properties that don't make sense in our universe.

I guess I can see how what I'm labeling "god" might not be labelled "god" to others, but I don't see the significance of such a point. Who am I being misleading to, and why should that affect my beliefs? I'm not saying there's not an answer, but I am somewhat curious.

For most people, the concept of something existing "outside the universe" is incoherent, since the generally accepted definition of "universe" is "everything that exists".

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12-10-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 04:26 PM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  And if it wasn't impossible, then it was possible.

The point being that you don't know it is impossible. You also don't know that it is possible. You have nothing to base either conclusion on. The best that can be said is that you don't know if it is possible or not.

Quote:Outside of the universe would mean that the god wouldn't be bound by our laws of physics and so could have properties that don't make sense in our universe.

Pure speculation makes for some good fictional literature. It is not a sound basis for a belief.

Quote:I guess I can see how what I'm labeling "god" might not be labelled "god" to others, but I don't see the significance of such a point. Who am I being misleading to, and why should that affect my beliefs? I'm not saying there's not an answer, but I am somewhat curious.

You don't see that saying that you believe a god might possibly exist and then following it up with the idea that the god in question might be simply some causal force with no intelligence is misleading? OK... I believe there are at least 2 teapots orbiting Mars and, oh by the way, the teapots might just be solid rock with irregular shapes. The term "god" implies some degree of consciousness, intent, "being", etc and if that's not what you mean then the term is an incredibly poor choice IMO.

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