Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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12-10-2016, 06:02 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 03:49 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  So i'm just curious of your perspective. From the great watch maker stand point (deism) What ideas lurk that makes you think a god (in any way) would be possible?

For now, I'm going to point you to a post I made on my introduction thread here. It's not very specific, but it's the best I can do right now without going too deep into the issues.
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12-10-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 04:30 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  For most people, the concept of something existing "outside the universe" is incoherent, since the generally accepted definition of "universe" is "everything that exists".

I think those in support of string theory and the multiverse would be okay with the concept. A rough definition I would use for our universe is everything observable.
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12-10-2016, 06:44 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
I think you've confused the chronology of my views that I described in my previous response.

(12-10-2016 05:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  The point being that you don't know it is impossible. You also don't know that it is possible. You have nothing to base either conclusion on. The best that can be said is that you don't know if it is possible or not.

Unless I'm mistaken, "impossible" is equivalent to "not possible". It's a logical negation. So if I believe that it's not impossible, then I believe it is possible. And I am talking about belief, not knowledge. Even if I don't know something, I can still believe it, which is a cornerstone to the agnostic atheist position. They don't know if god exists or not, but they don't believe god does exist. There's also the problem of what it means to know, but I don't want to get into that. Point is, we're talking about belief, and you don't need the knowledge of the truth value of a claim to believe it.

Quote:Pure speculation makes for some good fictional literature. It is not a sound basis for a belief.

What I'm saying in the part you quoted isn't even speculation, it's a logical deduction. But it doesn't really matter because I wasn't saying it as part of a justification for my belief in god, it was evidence to show that a god does not have to abide by our laws necessarily. Therefore, one couldn't use the argument that "a god is impossible because he breaks natural laws", and so provides evidence that god is not impossible. Also, this was still when I was an atheist. It didn't have anything to do with my beliefs now so there's not much point in contesting it.

Quote:You don't see that saying that you believe a god might possibly exist and then following it up with the idea that the god in question might be simply some causal force with no intelligence is misleading? ... The term "god" implies some degree of consciousness, intent, "being", etc and if that's not what you mean then the term is an incredibly poor choice IMO.

Again, I'm not following one thing up with the other. The first was an explanation of what I previously thought as an atheist. The second is the god I withhold belief and disbelief of currently. They are not related to each other.
I didn't say that I didn't see how it could be misleading. I said the opposite, in fact. What I did say is that I'm not sure of the significance of it being misleading. It pertains to my belief and unless I'm beginning an argument with somebody about god without defining the god first, nobody else should really care. You may have been mislead about my belief, but so what? We're not having an argument about how to define god or whether or not god exists, so what more should be done besides you recognizing my belief, drafting your own opinion about it, and then moving on?
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12-10-2016, 07:24 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 08:41 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  What did you discover?

I don't think that's too relevant to this discussion right now, so I'll save that for a later time. But if you want a little more, I became convinced that there is more to reality than this universe and that opened up a lot of possibilities.

LOL... so you lack the courage of your convictions then? Weak as piss mate. You lose. Sorry.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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12-10-2016, 08:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Unknown Devil - From what little I've read so far, you are convinced that there is more to reality than this universe and you believe things that have no basis in truth.

As you said "Even if I don't know something, I can still believe it."

It's true that there is nothing stopping you from believing that the moon is made of cheese.
Anyone can believe that if they want to, but in my own head, I like to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible.
The question remains, how do we discern if a belief is true or not ?

If you don't care whether your beliefs are true or not, then I guess there isn't much room for discussion.
I happen to care if my beliefs are true or not and the best way to determine if a belief is true or not is to justify that belief with sound reasons and evidence.

Do you agree ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-10-2016, 08:35 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 07:24 PM)SYZ Wrote:  LOL... so you lack the courage of your convictions then? Weak as piss mate. You lose. Sorry.

No, it's that my beliefs aren't easily communicated and I don't think this is the proper thread for further discussion on them. I'll point you to one of my posts on my introduction thread here if you want more information about my beliefs.
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12-10-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 08:13 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  As you said "Even if I don't know something, I can still believe it."
...
Anyone can believe that if they want to, but in my own head, I like to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible.
The question remains, how do we discern if a belief is true or not ?

Taking a page out of Matt Dillahunty's book? Or maybe you coined that yourself. But if it is the former, then you should know that I took the idea you quoted directly from him (though I could be quoting him wrong).
It is because I'm using a fairly strict definition of knowledge, a definition where one who claims to know would say "I'm certain or almost certain that this is true". For example, your bio says stuff like you're male, you live Alberta, and you're 51. I believe those things because I don't think it's likely that you would make things up considering your in-depth bio. However, I don't know these things and I don't claim to know because, despite the evidence, there is still a fairly reasonable chance that maybe it hasn't updated or maybe you did just lie, I dunno. So I believe based on what I think is the best evidence despite not knowing.
This may be a poor example because the claims are so tenuous, but it can apply to harder issues, depending on how strictly you define knowledge. As for how we discern a belief is true or not, it's gotta be with scientific and mathematical thinking. I don't believe we disagree greatly.
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13-10-2016, 06:09 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(12-10-2016 06:44 PM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I think you've confused the chronology of my views that I described in my previous response.

I may very well have read things out of order or misunderstood something that was posted.

Quote:
(12-10-2016 05:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  The point being that you don't know it is impossible. You also don't know that it is possible. You have nothing to base either conclusion on. The best that can be said is that you don't know if it is possible or not.

Unless I'm mistaken, "impossible" is equivalent to "not possible". It's a logical negation. So if I believe that it's not impossible, then I believe it is possible. And I am talking about belief, not knowledge. Even if I don't know something, I can still believe it, which is a cornerstone to the agnostic atheist position. They don't know if god exists or not, but they don't believe god does exist. There's also the problem of what it means to know, but I don't want to get into that. Point is, we're talking about belief, and you don't need the knowledge of the truth value of a claim to believe it.

The point I was trying to get to is that not having a good reason to believe something is impossible is not sufficient justification to believe that it is possible. It's like the gumball odd/even question. "Is X impossible" and "is X possible" are different questions. If you can answer either with a Yes or No then you can answer the other but if you can't answer either with a high degree of confidence then you can't answer the other.

You've made claims about what you believe is possible as far as a god existing but have yet to provide anything more than a vague first cause justification for that belief. The first cause argument doesn't get you to a god IMO.

Quote:
Quote:Pure speculation makes for some good fictional literature. It is not a sound basis for a belief.

What I'm saying in the part you quoted isn't even speculation, it's a logical deduction. But it doesn't really matter because I wasn't saying it as part of a justification for my belief in god, it was evidence to show that a god does not have to abide by our laws necessarily. Therefore, one couldn't use the argument that "a god is impossible because he breaks natural laws", and so provides evidence that god is not impossible. Also, this was still when I was an atheist. It didn't have anything to do with my beliefs now so there's not much point in contesting it.

No, it does not provide evidence that a god is not impossible. It also doesn't provide evidence that a god is possible or that a god is impossible. It doesn't matter whether it influenced your beliefs then or now, it is a fallacious line of reasoning no matter when it was employed.

Quote:
Quote:You don't see that saying that you believe a god might possibly exist and then following it up with the idea that the god in question might be simply some causal force with no intelligence is misleading? ... The term "god" implies some degree of consciousness, intent, "being", etc and if that's not what you mean then the term is an incredibly poor choice IMO.

Again, I'm not following one thing up with the other. The first was an explanation of what I previously thought as an atheist. The second is the god I withhold belief and disbelief of currently. They are not related to each other.
I didn't say that I didn't see how it could be misleading. I said the opposite, in fact.

When you respond with "Who am I being misleading to" it certainly implies to me that you do not think you are being misleading.

Quote:What I did say is that I'm not sure of the significance of it being misleading. It pertains to my belief and unless I'm beginning an argument with somebody about god without defining the god first, nobody else should really care. You may have been mislead about my belief, but so what? We're not having an argument about how to define god or whether or not god exists, so what more should be done besides you recognizing my belief, drafting your own opinion about it, and then moving on?

You come into an atheist forum with nebulous claims about not disbelieving that a god is impossible and are surprised that people try to pin you down on what you mean? I don't care one way or the other whether what you believe. I would like to know WHY you might think a god is possible and that requires knowing what you are using 'god' to mean. If I tell you I think a flurgh might possibly exists we can have no reasonable discussion until I define what a flurgh is and explain why I think it might exist.

If all you want to do is throw out vague speculations about undefined terms and have people come back with "that's nice for you" then I predict your time here will be unproductive and possibly short.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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13-10-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Don't worry about stay on topic. No one ever dose. Especially when it comes to subjects like this. It just the nature of conversation. Just need to go with the flow.

It's also important to know that ideas are challenge constantly. If they're strong they will survive the onslaught of questions and nitpicks. If they're weak then they will break down and often readjusted.

But don't cut off the conversation with "Well that's just what I believe." It's a cop out answer. You could be right. You could have something to say that will change peoples minds, and understand things a little more. You might even find more like minded people that side with you. So don't get scared off.

The forum has Doctors, Scientists, artists, and engineers. Just to name a few of the smart people that are active. So maybe when an idea is presented they might have, a broader understanding. They could add, or subtract from your way of thinking.


Quote:[*]physical and mathematical reality as one in the same
Please demonstrate.

Quote:[*]reality is not bound to the universe we live in
It isn't? Show me another reality, or where to find one.

Quote:[*]existence (and very recently time and space) as relative to systems (vague, I know)
Yes, very Vague.

Basically you said. Stuff is like other things.

You also mention string theory. Still in it's infancy. Plus at this current time we have no way of demonstrating that it plays out. But even if it was true. and somewhere in the infinite string of possibility's there was a god that fit the description of any oone that have been imagined in the life time of mans existence one. That would mean that every god ever imagined was real. But what make you think that that would be possible in this one. This is the reality we live in. No one here gives a shit about Earth 12 (DC reference). That means superman exist. And I'd take him over the christian god any day. But just because superman may exist in some other reality doesn't mean he's in ours.

Since you're still feeling the field on deism. That would also bring up the other question of Why should we care?

A god that sits on the side lines and dose nothing. Is the same as having no god at all correct?
Playing with the possibility that it maybe there, and it's just watching and waiting is just a waste of time. Not when people in your backyard are throwing themselves into plans or strapping C4 to their chest. I can't beging to conceive that a being that people may accept as a god floats in the ether suspended from time and space.

It's like that episode in Rick and Morty with the giant floating heads zap earth on to their realty game show. And just say "Show me what you got."

People without knowing what the fuck was going on started worshiping them wearing silly hats, and killing people. Not realizing they just wanted someone to sing a cool rock song.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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13-10-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(13-10-2016 06:09 AM)unfogged Wrote:  . . .not having a good reason to believe something is impossible is not sufficient justification to believe that it is possible. . .If you can answer either with a Yes or No then you can answer the other but if you can't answer either with a high degree of confidence then you can't answer the other.

You've made claims about what you believe is possible as far as a god existing but have yet to provide anything more than a vague first cause justification for that belief.

You're thinking is correct. But I did say that I believed (and believed I had good reason) to say YES to "god is not impossible" which, if you take the logic I described as true, means "god is possible'. Now you can argue that my reasoning wasn't valid, but you didn't really argue against it. You just say I use a "vague first cause justification", which doesn't address the logic of my thinking.

Quote:No, it does not provide evidence that a god is not impossible. It also doesn't provide evidence that a god is possible or that a god is impossible. It doesn't matter whether it influenced your beliefs then or now, it is a fallacious line of reasoning no matter when it was employed.

Again, you're not showing me how I'm wrong. You're just saying "no". How am I supposed to respond to that? I'm not going to bother re-explaining my thinking if you're just going to reject it without reasons why.

Quote:You come into an atheist forum with nebulous claims about not disbelieving that a god is impossible and are surprised that people try to pin you down on what you mean?..
...
If all you want to do is throw out vague speculations about undefined terms and have people come back with "that's nice for you" then I predict your time here will be unproductive and possibly short.

This thread is called, "For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?". I created it for people to simply answer the question and, at the same time, express their beliefs/disbeliefs about gods. I wasn't going to argue with whether or not their line of thinking was correct, I simply wanted to know what they believe. When asked about my beliefs, I have done the same. I have expressed the definitions of gods I have used and my beliefs/disbeliefs about those gods, as well as some reasons as to why I believe what I do. This thread was not about arguing for your beliefs, it's about expressing them.

You are far from the first person to bring this up and I have said before that I will express my views in further detail at a later time, in a different thread where it is more relevant. As a matter of fact, I'll probably start today, since it seems to be so requested.Smile
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