For The "Bernie or Busters"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-06-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(10-06-2016 01:10 PM)ImFred Wrote:  My goal is to beat Trump AND Clinton and anyone else who runs against Jill Stein. I'm not using my vote to reinforce my own oppression. That would be much worse than not voting at all.
If you don't mind, I'll ask you the same question I asked Colourcraze the other day. What do you think about Jill Stein's and the Green Party's views on homeopathy, vaccines and nuclear energy?

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-06-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
The thing that bugs me most about the Sanders crowd is that too many of them are Millennials who are probably expecting someone to hand them a participation trophy just like in fucking little league. This is politics. No one cares about your fucking self-esteem anymore. Your boy lost. Get over it. He lost by every conceivable measure.

You want to change things then you have to put the work in. No one is going to design an app for you. Register as democrats and start pushing the party for change from inside. That's what the religitards did to the republicans in the 70's and they turned it into a pretty good run. They nearly turned this country into a jesus freak festival. Thank goodness Scalia died.

If you want to go home and sulk then fuck ya. Everything Sanders tried to accomplish will evaporate. But you can go home and pretend that you are above it all.... somehow.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Minimalist's post
10-06-2016, 01:24 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(10-06-2016 12:57 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 12:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  This isn't a difficult thing to understand. Not every vote counts when talking about voting for president.

Swing states could go either way.

My state votes consistently one way.

If one equals one and the votes are counted and the electoral votes go to the winner then your vote counts as one vote and brings the candidate you voted for one vote closer to winning the electoral college vote. Math is math, from Alabama to Oregon, one equals one.

So what?

If the majority of any state consistently goes a certain way, you'll have to work harder to explain how it means squat in a national election. i can't vote anywhere else but here.

My vote can't be applied to different state, can it?

We don't go by solely popular vote (where every vote does count) for president. Gore lost in 2000 after winning the popular vote.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-06-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
I can understand the desire to vote for a person who is all but gauranteed to lose. But ultimately I feel like if you want to affect the actual outcome, strategically voting makes sense more-so over simply voting for who you like best. I personally like Hillary Clinton, but not so much that I care if she becomes pres. or not. I do however strongly care that Trump does not become president. When a future of president Trump is at stake (steak, bahahaha), I think it's important to vote. I felt the same way about VP Palin (I actually liked McCain though). It wasn't so much that I had any special feelings about Obama. But Palin was a big fat helllll to the no.

I get wanting to vote for who you REALLY want to win. But when that isn't a realistic outcome, I think voting for the most desirable plausible outcome makes the most sense. And not doing so is stubborn, and possibly harmful if you personally do rate one outcome as being much more harmful than the other. Not doing what you can to stop it isn't very responsible IMO. But I also don't hold it against those who choose to do what they will. As they say, "It's a free country."

"You work with what you are given"

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Adrianime's post
10-06-2016, 01:50 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(10-06-2016 01:13 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 01:10 PM)ImFred Wrote:  My goal is to beat Trump AND Clinton and anyone else who runs against Jill Stein. I'm not using my vote to reinforce my own oppression. That would be much worse than not voting at all.
If you don't mind, I'll ask you the same question I asked Colourcraze the other day. What do you think about Jill Stein's and the Green Party's views on homeopathy, vaccines and nuclear energy?

Those are bad weak points about the Green Party in general.

Quote:Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.

For homeopathy, just because something is untested doesn't mean it's safe. By the same token, being "tested" and "reviewed" by agencies tied to big pharma and the chemical industry is also problematic. There's a lot of snake-oil in this system. We need research and licensing boards that are protected from conflicts of interest. They should not be limited by arbitrary definitions of what is "natural" or not.

She doesn't hop off the deep end about vaccines and stays away from the autism crap, but she isn't strong enough. I'm with you, at least if I'm guessing right on where you stand. Unless we want polio or whatever to make a comeback we can't have large movements of misinformed people not getting their kids vaccinated. She needs to distance herself far more firmly from that.

On the anti-Western medicine movement or whatever it's called she calls snake oil snake oil. I still think she's pandering to the pseudoscience hippy fantasyland type a little. She knows it's crap and is trying to play both sides a bit. Again I wish she were stronger on the truth the by a large margin FDA approved drugs actually WORK. You don't treat syphilis with chamomile.

Out of all that the worst is the anti-GMO rhetoric. Depending on what she means by "moratorium" that could be a disaster. I'm not going to lie.

Naturally, a Green candidate has to be against nuclear power. While I agree that nuclear power is undesirable at this point we do not have the luxury of taking it off the table. We can't even take coal off the table right now. But her long term energy goal and converting our resources to achieving it is our only hope.

I get what you're saying but overall her vision is so aligned with what I'm dreaming for for the future of the world nothing else comes close to her. But yeah, you went right to the heart of the bad points. I hope you can respect I'm not so blind I'm going to try to bullshit out of it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like I'mFred's post
10-06-2016, 01:56 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
So, will people really be surprised when The Donald cashes his check from the Clintons?

Just asking. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kim's post
10-06-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(10-06-2016 01:10 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:Ralph Nader

People who voted for Nadar did NOT want Bush or Gore to be president. They didn't want to defeat Bush, they wanted to elect Nader. My goal isn't to beat Trump or Clinton. My goal is to beat Trump AND Clinton and anyone else who runs against Jill Stein. I'm not using my vote to reinforce my own oppression. That would be much worse than not voting at all.

Regardless of what they wanted, though, what they accomplished was to hand the election to Bush (with a little help from the Supreme Court). Actions have consequences, and not always the desired ones.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Grasshopper's post
10-06-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(10-06-2016 01:50 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 01:13 PM)Vosur Wrote:  If you don't mind, I'll ask you the same question I asked Colourcraze the other day. What do you think about Jill Stein's and the Green Party's views on homeopathy, vaccines and nuclear energy?

Those are bad weak points about the Green Party in general.

Quote:Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.

For homeopathy, just because something is untested doesn't mean it's safe. By the same token, being "tested" and "reviewed" by agencies tied to big pharma and the chemical industry is also problematic. There's a lot of snake-oil in this system. We need research and licensing boards that are protected from conflicts of interest. They should not be limited by arbitrary definitions of what is "natural" or not.

She doesn't hop off the deep end about vaccines and stays away from the autism crap, but she isn't strong enough. I'm with you, at least if I'm guessing right on where you stand. Unless we want polio or whatever to make a comeback we can't have large movements of misinformed people not getting their kids vaccinated. She needs to distance herself far more firmly from that.

On the anti-Western medicine movement or whatever it's called she calls snake oil snake oil. I still think she's pandering to the pseudoscience hippy fantasyland type a little. She knows it's crap and is trying to play both sides a bit. Again I wish she were stronger on the truth the by a large margin FDA approved drugs actually WORK. You don't treat syphilis with chamomile.

Out of all that the worst is the anti-GMO rhetoric. Depending on what she means by "moratorium" that could be a disaster. I'm not going to lie.

Naturally, a Green candidate has to be against nuclear power. While I agree that nuclear power is undesirable at this point we do not have the luxury of taking it off the table. We can't even take coal off the table right now. But her long term energy goal and converting our resources to achieving it is our only hope.

I get what you're saying but overall her vision is so aligned with what I'm dreaming for for the future of the world nothing else comes close to her. But yeah, you went right to the heart of the bad points. I hope you can respect I'm not so blind I'm going to try to bullshit out of it.
Thanks for the honest response. I have to say I do respect that you're able to acknowledge her shortcomings. I've been curious about her supporters ever since I read that AMA she gave on reddit a month or two ago. A lot of people were disappointed by her answers there because she, as you said, tried to play to both sides of the arguments by refusing to explicitly endorse and condemn one side or the other when it comes to certain issues. As a European, it's difficult to fathom why she doesn't take a hard stance on these pseudo-scientific issues by publicly condemning them as nonsense. Those simply should not be controversial statements in an educated, Western society. As for myself, I can't stand pandering politicians so you can imagine that I don't particularly like Trump, Clinton, Sanders, Stein or Johnson. One might say that it's perfectly normal for politicians to pander to the lowest common denominator, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Tongue

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-06-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(10-06-2016 01:50 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 01:13 PM)Vosur Wrote:  If you don't mind, I'll ask you the same question I asked Colourcraze the other day. What do you think about Jill Stein's and the Green Party's views on homeopathy, vaccines and nuclear energy?

Those are bad weak points about the Green Party in general.

Quote:Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.

For homeopathy, just because something is untested doesn't mean it's safe. By the same token, being "tested" and "reviewed" by agencies tied to big pharma and the chemical industry is also problematic. There's a lot of snake-oil in this system. We need research and licensing boards that are protected from conflicts of interest. They should not be limited by arbitrary definitions of what is "natural" or not.

She doesn't hop off the deep end about vaccines and stays away from the autism crap, but she isn't strong enough. I'm with you, at least if I'm guessing right on where you stand. Unless we want polio or whatever to make a comeback we can't have large movements of misinformed people not getting their kids vaccinated. She needs to distance herself far more firmly from that.

On the anti-Western medicine movement or whatever it's called she calls snake oil snake oil. I still think she's pandering to the pseudoscience hippy fantasyland type a little. She knows it's crap and is trying to play both sides a bit. Again I wish she were stronger on the truth the by a large margin FDA approved drugs actually WORK. You don't treat syphilis with chamomile.

Out of all that the worst is the anti-GMO rhetoric. Depending on what she means by "moratorium" that could be a disaster. I'm not going to lie.

Naturally, a Green candidate has to be against nuclear power. While I agree that nuclear power is undesirable at this point we do not have the luxury of taking it off the table. We can't even take coal off the table right now. But her long term energy goal and converting our resources to achieving it is our only hope.

I get what you're saying but overall her vision is so aligned with what I'm dreaming for for the future of the world nothing else comes close to her. But yeah, you went right to the heart of the bad points. I hope you can respect I'm not so blind I'm going to try to bullshit out of it.

For me those bad points are enough not to vote for her. Having someone even sympathetic to the Anti-Vax movement in a position to set national policy is a no go we can very quickly lose 120 years of progress. That is a hill I am willing to die on.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Revenant77x's post
10-06-2016, 02:19 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
Quote:People who voted for Nadar did NOT want Bush or Gore to be president. They didn't want to defeat Bush, they wanted to elect Nader. My goal isn't to beat Trump or Clinton. My goal is to beat Trump AND Clinton and anyone else who runs against Jill Stein.

Let's let your fantasy run wild for a moment. So President "Stein" is sworn in and quickly learns that she does not have a single supporter in congress. Then what?
We do not elect a king. We elect a president who must go to congress. With our system, flawed though it might be, that president at least has some assurance that he has a party of backers on Capitol Hill.

It's great to want a 3d choice but be careful what you wish for.

This:






does not happen.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: