For The "Bernie or Busters"
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11-06-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 09:04 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I see the first as voting for your self interests (it's certainly your vote and you can do with it what you want) but the second is voting for everyone's interest.

I think this is an unnecessary dichotomy. It's in my interest that we have a stable and functional country. We may or may not disagree on how to go about that goal -- hence the voting itself -- but simply because I'm voting for someone with a smaller chance of winning, that doesn't taint my vote with selfishness.
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11-06-2016, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2016 10:03 AM by Heatheness.)
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 09:43 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 09:04 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I see the first as voting for your self interests (it's certainly your vote and you can do with it what you want) but the second is voting for everyone's interest.

I think this is an unnecessary dichotomy. It's in my interest that we have a stable and functional country. We may or may not disagree on how to go about that goal -- hence the voting itself -- but simply because I'm voting for someone with a smaller chance of winning, that doesn't taint my vote with selfishness.

I understand you don't see it that way, because I don't think you would be purposefully selfish, but with all due respect I still see it that way. I am willing to try to understand why it isn't.

However, again it's each persons vote and they have the right to use it or not as they see fit. That is how it is designed to work and I approve of that.

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11-06-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 01:27 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 01:08 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  From what I read the polls have changed, hillary is up by 11 points.
Where? Nationally? The two most recent polls have her up by 3 and 4 points respectively, which is within the margin of error. The last poll I could find that had her up by 11 points was conducted in April.

Just curious... are you voting in the US Presidential Election this year?

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11-06-2016, 11:39 AM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 09:49 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I understand you don't see it that way, because I don't think you would be purposefully selfish, but with all due respect I still see it that way. I am willing to try to understand why it isn't.

Because disagreeing about the best way to address the issues facing a country doesn't immediately mean that those voting for someone less likely to win are doing so to assuage their ego.

They may well actually believe that their candidate has a better approach, and aren't willing to compromise their voice just for the comfort of knowing they voted for the winner.

What if, at the end of October, Trump were to have a thirty-point lead over Clinton? Would you not vote at all? Would you still vote Clinton? (I know better than to ask if you'd vote for Trump Smile ).
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11-06-2016, 11:51 AM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2016 12:09 PM by Heatheness.)
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 11:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Because disagreeing about the best way to address the issues facing a country doesn't immediately mean that those voting for someone less likely to win are doing so to assuage their ego.

They may well actually believe that their candidate has a better approach, and aren't willing to compromise their voice just for the comfort of knowing they voted for the winner.

What if, at the end of October, Trump were to have a thirty-point lead over Clinton? Would you not vote at all? Would you still vote Clinton? (I know better than to ask if you'd vote for Trump Smile ).

I get this part (bolded above) but if your candidate has no chance, then what point is your vote but to (as you put it, which I would not but...) feed your ego? That is the part I do not understand. It seems to me that it is doing just that, in actuality, if not in intent.

No, I probably would not vote at all if I truly thought it was already a done deal. I have never felt that so I honestly don't know.

I don't wait until just before polls close and try to vote the winner but I do vote the winner of the party I most identify with, even if that candidate is not the one I want most.

EDIT*** I would like to see a 5 party required system. Not just people wanting more than a two party system but at least 5 parties offered and represented by law. I do not think we will ever get away from the 2 party system until this is law.

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11-06-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 09:50 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Just curious... are you voting in the US Presidential Election this year?
I'm a German citizen who lives in the Czech Republic, so the answer to that question is "No." Tongue

If I was a U.S. citizen, I would most likely write in Jim Webb. Trump is a pathological liar who flip-flops even more than Mitt Romney did and whose views on global warming and vaccines go against the scientific consensus, Clinton is a corrupt war hawk who takes millions from patriarchal dictatorships like Saudi Arabia while claiming to be a champion for women's rights. It's another election year where Americans get to choose the lesser evil. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to choose between the two, I'd go for Trump because we already know what we would get with Clinton. Trump is a wild card that could go either way, depending on which side of the issues he takes once elected.

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11-06-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 11:54 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 09:50 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Just curious... are you voting in the US Presidential Election this year?
I'm a German citizen who lives in the Czech Republic, so the answer to that question is "No." Tongue

If I was a U.S. citizen, I would most likely write-in Jim Webb. Trump is a pathological liar who flip-flops even more than Mitt Romney did and whose views on global warming and vaccines go against the scientific consensus, Clinton is a corrupt war hawk who takes millions from patriarchal dictatorships like Saudi Arabia while claiming to be a champion for women's rights. It's another election year where Americans get to choose the lesser evil. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to choose between the two, I'd go for Trump because we already know what we would get with Clinton. Trump is a wild card that could go either way, depending on which side of the issues he takes once elected.

I see. Then may I ask why you are trying to influence the voting of others in a foreign country for which you have no citizenship interest in? Just curious.

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11-06-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 11:57 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I see. Then may I ask why you are trying to influence the voting of others in a foreign country for which you have no citizenship interest in? Just curious.
That's simple enough. I do it because the US is one of the few countries with a democratically elected government whose election outcome has a major impact on the rest of the world. I wouldn't care about your elections nearly as much if your government actually thought about and took responsibility for the consequences of its foreign policy decisions, but it doesn't. It was the US who started and then bullied the rest of the world into supporting their pointless wars in the Middle East and yet it's not the US that are taking in the millions of refugees who were displaced as a result of these decisions. No, instead it's countries like Germany who are being burdened with these problems. You could make the argument that it would be much more costly to ship them to the US and you would be correct, but in that case, the US should be financially contributing to our efforts to house them in a major way, which they don't.

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11-06-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(11-06-2016 12:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 11:57 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I see. Then may I ask why you are trying to influence the voting of others in a foreign country for which you have no citizenship interest in? Just curious.
That's simple enough. I do it because the US is one of the few countries with a democratically elected government whose election outcome has a major impact on the rest of the world. I wouldn't care about your elections nearly as much if your government actually thought about and took responsibility for the consequences of its foreign policy decisions, but it doesn't. It was the US who started and then bullied the rest of the world into supporting their pointless wars in the Middle East and yet it's not the US that are taking in the millions of refugees who were displaced as a result of these decisions. No, instead it's countries like Germany who are being burdened with these problems. You could make the argument that it would be much more costly to ship them to the US and you would be correct, but in that case, the US should be financially contributing to our efforts to house them in a major way, which they don't.

Interesting. So basically you're saying that because you don't like how your countries in Europe whore out to the US you feel compelled to try to change the US rather than change your own country? Is that right?

If other countries don't want to go long with or follow or align themselves with the US they don't have to. That is their choice. Of course that would mean you would have to vote in or vote out politicians who would be willing to do that. That is where you might actually have a say in how things are run.

I guess I've never considered trying to influence the politics of other countries because my own country is, I don't know, may not be the right word, submissive? I avoid using weak or helpless because I felt it was too non-agency minded. Must be hard to live under such oppression.

We take in millions of refugees, maybe not the ones you are taking in but none then less, millions. If fact I think a huge amount of our country is refugee based either directly or by generations of previous refugees, if I'm not mistaken, so I don't think we can say the US is refugee free. No, I would say over our short lifetime as a country we have done our share and will continue to do so.

Of course, with Trump at the helm that would be the first thing to go. That would be a shame.

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11-06-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: For The "Bernie or Busters"
(09-06-2016 08:42 PM)I Am Wrote:  I am still going to sob into my bourbon and ice cream this weekend though.

I ate a pint of Blue Bell Rocky Road. I drank an approximately equivalent quantity of Jim Beam. I have not sobbed.

Mostly I thought am thinking of a time between ages 11 and 12, when I began to realize that the world is wrong. That our interactions with "society," with systems larger than our influence, are broken. That those breaks are uneven, and never in our favor. That the difference between the big end and the little end of those breaks create power and wealth. That no amount of collective intelligence or effort overcomes a relationship between a rich man and his son. That war reinforces the luck of the global class lottery.

I am drunk and angry. Bernie Sanders is a mild symptom of the disease class structure causes. The powerful have treatments against symptoms like him. They have superdelegates. Before those, they had assassins. Before those, they had gendarms loyal to royalty. Power rolls on. I suppose the fact that Bernie will survive his candidacy is a depressing sort of progress.

Someday the educated, reasoned conclusions of the populous will determine policy. That day will not be this November, nor 8 nor 80 years from now. But someday it will happen. The People's Intent will be so ubiquitous that it will be an unstoppable force. I hope, I believe, that force will be for good. But not today, not today, today we continue to advocate for the lesser of evils, hoping it is less evil than the evil before.

Raise a glass, all you who are made irrelevant by wealth. Drink the health of your progeny, that theirs might someday see liberty. And vote... vote... according to the way power should flow.
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