For TheBorg,
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27-08-2016, 07:17 PM
For TheBorg,
A question for TheBorg,

Given theism's commitment to metaphysical subjectivism (the belief that reality has it's source in and conforms to a form of consciousness), on what basis can a theist distinguish between the real and the imaginary? I've asked this question of many theists and to date not one of them has been able to provide a method for doing this. A few have admitted that there isn't one and some have said that there isn't a distinction. I can only conclude that indeed there is no basis in theism for doing this. What are your thoughts?

And please, any other theists are welcome and encouraged to chime in.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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27-08-2016, 08:50 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
If I might chime in.

The theist has grown up with the imaginary existing side by side with the real.

Reality is constantly layered with an imaginary pallet of ideas.

Let's say each time I see a real stop sign, I imagine a little leprechaun sitting on top of it. If I begin to consciously do it, it will become a habit. It could become an enjoyable habit that makes me smile.

Let's go a step further and I imagine the leprechaun is giving me driving advice.
"All is clear. Watch for cars at the next light. Slow down, cop up ahead."

A step further and I begin to think this leprechaun is real. I begin to make up some crazy idea about parallel universes and I have the ability to see into one of those universes in which leprechauns sit on stop signs giving driving advice.

Of course I know that leprechauns don't exist here but they could in another universe.

I'm simply special enough to see them. They see how special I am and that's why they give me driving advice.

------
It kinda comes down to the idea that theists want to be seen as something special. Their ordinary life is too plain, so they add in their imagination.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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27-08-2016, 09:22 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(27-08-2016 08:50 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If I might chime in.

The theist has grown up with the imaginary existing side by side with the real.

Reality is constantly layered with an imaginary pallet of ideas.

Let's say each time I see a real stop sign, I imagine a little leprechaun sitting on top of it. If I begin to consciously do it, it will become a habit. It could become an enjoyable habit that makes me smile.

Let's go a step further and I imagine the leprechaun is giving me driving advice.
"All is clear. Watch for cars at the next light. Slow down, cop up ahead."

A step further and I begin to think this leprechaun is real. I begin to make up some crazy idea about parallel universes and I have the ability to see into one of those universes in which leprechauns sit on stop signs giving driving advice.

Of course I know that leprechauns don't exist here but they could in another universe.

I'm simply special enough to see them. They see how special I am and that's why they give me driving advice.

------
It kinda comes down to the idea that theists want to be seen as something special. Their ordinary life is too plarin, so they add in their imagination.

Yep, blurring the line between the imaginary and the real is theism's stock in trade and believing that something is possible just because one can imagine it is a consequence of theism's alliegence to the primacy of consciousness. unfortunately, this view is not limited to theists alone. I hold that if one does not recognize explicitly and consistently the primacy of existence, one will not be able to avoid, somewhere in their worldview, blurring this line.

I think it's why theists react the way they do to any unbeliever who expresses certainty in their unbelief. It's why they constantly want atheists to say they're agnostic instead of atheist. As long as you are willing to grant the possibility that a God exists, even though there is no alternative but the imagination if one tries to comprehend their God. We can't see it or perceive it in any way. We can't deduce it from any rationally informed premises. We can't infer it without trading in stolen concepts. What's left?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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28-08-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
I feel like this video should go here.




Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-08-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
You might be asking tbeBorg to stretch hjs, or ger, braincell a but too far, TS!

But I like your analogy. I have used the, "How would you view the person who insisted that his life was controlled by an invisible pink panda?" type arguement. Usually to be told that I am just being silly/facetious/contentious (I own up to the last) and the theist "walking off."

Also, similar to Rahn, I have met theists who simply cannot understand how I can live a fulfilled life without belief in god. I tell them that, because it is fully my life and that I am totally responsible for my actions (barring insanity!), every moment of my life has meaning, for me at least.

Even the sorrow after I accidently washed a spider down the plughole this morning.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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28-08-2016, 05:17 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
Seriously, is Borg a poe?

☆☆☆
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28-08-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(28-08-2016 05:17 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Seriously, is Borg a poe?

Poes are defined by the impossibility of making a solid identification. If you can ever arrive at a definitive answer about whether so-and-so is a True Poe, then so-and-so isn't actually a True Poe. But True Poes must exist in reality because why else call them True, but if they do then they are not True Poes, so they do not exist in reality, but then they are True, and so must necessarily exist, but then they are not True. Heart

.....

Angel
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28-08-2016, 08:14 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(28-08-2016 01:49 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  You might be asking tbeBorg to stretch hjs, or ger, braincell a but too far, TS!

Possibly, but no matter how far a theist stretches their mind there is no way out of this issue for them. I'm simply asking them to be consistent with their worldview's presuppositions. A worldview which claims to be the only source of truth should be able to answer this in a snap. I know mine can do it in a snap but I'm told that my worldview reduces to absurdity, and that I must borrow from theirs in order to make sense of the world. Well, crucial to making sense of the world is the ability to distinguish the real from the unreal. This should be a snap for TheBorg since he is buddies with an all knowing spirit.

(28-08-2016 01:49 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  But I like your analogy. I have used the, "How would you view the person who insisted that his life was controlled by an invisible pink panda?" type arguement. Usually to be told that I am just being silly/facetious/contentious (I own up to the last) and the theist "walking off."

This is a good analogy. Could one live his life on the premise that his every action is controlled. Similarly, could one live his life on the basis that there is no distinction between the real and the imaginary?

(28-08-2016 01:49 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Also, similar to Rahn, I have met theists who simply cannot understand how I can live a fulfilled life without belief in god. I tell them that, because it is fully my life and that I am totally responsible for my actions (barring insanity!), every moment of my life has meaning, for me at least.

Yes I have too. Since my actions are aimed at furthering my life and my happiness my life can not fail to have a purpose even if I don't believe in an invisible magic being. It really frightens them I think, the thought of having to provide their own meaning and purpose to life. Theism is an attempt to evade that very responsibility.

I've also never met a theist who knew the fundamental premises of his own worldview. I don't think there is one on the whole planet. I realize that that is an incredibly bold statement but I think it is true none the less. If they did they wouldn't be theists.
(28-08-2016 01:49 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Even the sorrow after I accidently washed a spider down the plughole this morning.
LOL. I'm a shower spider rescuer too! See, we atheists are just brimming over with empathy and kindness.Big Grin

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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28-08-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
To be honest he's seems to have disappeared as I said before on another thread this time it looks like resistance was far from futile Laugh out load Big Grin
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28-08-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(28-08-2016 05:17 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Seriously, is Borg a poe?

I changed my vote from poe to troll awhile back. YOpinionMV Smile
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