For TheBorg,
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02-09-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
Girlyman and Grasshopper,

I think I saw a couple of comments posted that were addressed to me but I can't be certain. They seemed to have been posted on the thinking atheist but it might have been a different web site, I'm not sure. I might have imagined it all but I have no way of knowing. There appeared to be letters arranged on the page but they may have just been random bad pixels or a picture of Hillary Clinton. I can't tell. I wish there were some more people here to confirm what I think my senses picked up but there aren't, or are there? Anyway I'd really like answer those comments but maybe that's why I shouldn't. After all if I want to do it that makes it selfish and immoral. I can't even be sure that I'm typing this or that it makes any sense. I might be asleep and dreaming all this, I wish I knew. Since I don't and have no way of finding out, I guess I should just sit and do nothing. Wait, how do I know I'm sitting? Oh well, what's the use. Well just in case this might be real I'll go ahead and hit post comment.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-09-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 05:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Girlyman and Grasshopper,

I think I saw a couple of comments posted that were addressed to me but I can't be certain. They seemed to have been posted on the thinking atheist but it might have been a different web site, I'm not sure. I might have imagined it all but I have no way of knowing. There appeared to be letters arranged on the page but they may have just been random bad pixels or a picture of Hillary Clinton. I can't tell. I wish there were some more people here to confirm what I think my senses picked up but there aren't, or are there? Anyway I'd really like answer those comments but maybe that's why I shouldn't. After all if I want to do it that makes it selfish and immoral. I can't even be sure that I'm typing this or that it makes any sense. I might be asleep and dreaming all this, I wish I knew. Since I don't and have no way of finding out, I guess I should just sit and do nothing. Wait, how do I know I'm sitting? Oh well, what's the use. Well just in case this might be real I'll go ahead and hit post comment.

I'm not sure what you do but I use abduction to reason to the best explanation fully aware that it could be completely wrong. What the hell else I'm gonna do?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-09-2016, 06:13 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 05:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Girlyman and Grasshopper,

I think I saw a couple of comments posted that were addressed to me but I can't be certain. They seemed to have been posted on the thinking atheist but it might have been a different web site, I'm not sure. I might have imagined it all but I have no way of knowing. There appeared to be letters arranged on the page but they may have just been random bad pixels or a picture of Hillary Clinton. I can't tell. I wish there were some more people here to confirm what I think my senses picked up but there aren't, or are there? Anyway I'd really like answer those comments but maybe that's why I shouldn't. After all if I want to do it that makes it selfish and immoral. I can't even be sure that I'm typing this or that it makes any sense. I might be asleep and dreaming all this, I wish I knew. Since I don't and have no way of finding out, I guess I should just sit and do nothing. Wait, how do I know I'm sitting? Oh well, what's the use. Well just in case this might be real I'll go ahead and hit post comment.

I'm equally confused. My senses were telling me that you were wanting to discuss this subject with the forum theists, but ....maybe not. I must have misinterpreted the data.

Everything about this thread is baffling.
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02-09-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 06:13 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 05:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Girlyman and Grasshopper,

I think I saw a couple of comments posted that were addressed to me but I can't be certain. They seemed to have been posted on the thinking atheist but it might have been a different web site, I'm not sure. I might have imagined it all but I have no way of knowing. There appeared to be letters arranged on the page but they may have just been random bad pixels or a picture of Hillary Clinton. I can't tell. I wish there were some more people here to confirm what I think my senses picked up but there aren't, or are there? Anyway I'd really like answer those comments but maybe that's why I shouldn't. After all if I want to do it that makes it selfish and immoral. I can't even be sure that I'm typing this or that it makes any sense. I might be asleep and dreaming all this, I wish I knew. Since I don't and have no way of finding out, I guess I should just sit and do nothing. Wait, how do I know I'm sitting? Oh well, what's the use. Well just in case this might be real I'll go ahead and hit post comment.

I'm equally confused. My senses were telling me that you were wanting to discuss this subject with the forum theists, but ....maybe not. I must have misinterpreted the data.

Everything about this thread is baffling.

Hi Aliza,

Actually I just had a question I wanted an answer to. I can't have a discussion with people who can't be sure there is a reality or whether or not they are dreaming or not or with people who are evasive. I'm just not going to waste my time. Girlyman and Grasshopper don't like the fact that I hold my verdicts with certainty. What could they have to complain about? I am complying.

I will respond to the rest of your comments Aliza, I've just only had snatches of time today, not long enough to devote to your comments and do them justice. I'm going to work some more and then I'll finally have time to sit down and dig in. Unless you don't want to discuss it any more?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-09-2016, 07:35 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 07:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Girlyman and Grasshopper don't like the fact that I hold my verdicts with certainty.

Whoa there big fella. Didn't realize I was up in your grill. We just have different reads on "certainty" is all. My read is just more skeptical than yours. No biggie.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-09-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 07:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 07:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Girlyman and Grasshopper don't like the fact that I hold my verdicts with certainty.

Whoa there big fella. Didn't realize I was up in your grill. We just have different reads on "certainty" is all. My read is just more skeptical than yours. No biggie.

Not up in my grill. I've just been in plenty of those kinds of discussions and they go nowhere. I'm not angry with you Girly. I never demand agreement.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-09-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
Reality is 1 of 2 things; it can't be both?

*Either reality is there for all our consciousnesses to perceive, regardless of what a consciousness wishes, or even how well the consciousness perceives it.
*Or it is dreamed up (was created) by a consciousness.

If you believe this reality is completely impervious to your wishes, does not respond to your prayers, and will continue to exist beyond the cessation of your senses, you can't believe that it was created by a consciousness?

Did I get it, T-Scots?

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03-09-2016, 12:17 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
I'd just like to say that I'm loving this conversation.

Or at least, I think I am. It's an emotional response ... not a reasonable one.

Big Grin


(02-09-2016 08:07 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Reality is 1 of 2 things; it can't be both?

*Either reality is there for all our consciousnesses to perceive, regardless of what a consciousness wishes, or even how well the consciousness perceives it.
*Or it is dreamed up (was created) by a consciousness.

If you believe this reality is completely impervious to your wishes, does not respond to your prayers, and will continue to exist beyond the cessation of your senses, you can't believe that it was created by a consciousness?

Did I get it, T-Scots?

I think you did.

The only thing I can think of to refute it is akin to the argument someone (Dark Pheonix? I'm not sure) gave against the cosmological argument's first premise regarding "beginning to exist" which may apply to things within the set but not necessarily to the set itself (i.e. the universe = the set).

So it's possible that things within the set require the primacy of existence but the set itself (the universe) could have been caused by some disembodied consciousness (Aliza's god or Girly's sim-game).

:goes off to cuddle my pragmatism:

Yes

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03-09-2016, 12:25 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:07 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Reality is 1 of 2 things; it can't be both?

*Either reality is there for all our consciousnesses to perceive, regardless of what a consciousness wishes, or even how well the consciousness perceives it.
*Or it is dreamed up (was created) by a consciousness.

If you believe this reality is completely impervious to your wishes, does not respond to your prayers, and will continue to exist beyond the cessation of your senses, you can't believe that it was created by a consciousness?

Did I get it, T-Scots?

Pretty much that is it, yeah. I would word it: either consciousness is dependent on reality or reality is dependent on consciousness. We know which is dependent on which. Consciousness presupposes the question consciousness of what? A consciousness conscious of nothing is a contradiction in terms. Consciousness is dependent on existence in several ways. First consciousness is not an entity itself but an action performed by an entity. It is an attribute of certain kinds of entities, namely biological organisms that possess the structures necessary whether it be light sensitive cells or a full blown brain and nervous system like ours. Just as fishing requires a fisherman and dancing requires dancers, consciousness requires an organism capable of consciousness. Second, consciousness requires an object to be conscious of. Consciousness is consciousness of something as opposed to nothing. Third, consciousness must exist before it can be conscious of anything. So you can see that in each of these things, existence is a prerequisite of consciousness. To say that consciousness comes first and then existence is it's product commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. Again consciousness of what?

This fact of primacy of existence is something that anyone can observe and test at any time and any place. No one needs to take it on faith. No one needs to accept it without validation and the validation is the simplest of all, sense perception.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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03-09-2016, 12:45 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(03-09-2016 12:17 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'd just like to say that I'm loving this conversation.

Or at least, I think I am. It's an emotional response ... not a reasonable one.

Big Grin


(02-09-2016 08:07 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Reality is 1 of 2 things; it can't be both?

*Either reality is there for all our consciousnesses to perceive, regardless of what a consciousness wishes, or even how well the consciousness perceives it.
*Or it is dreamed up (was created) by a consciousness.

If you believe this reality is completely impervious to your wishes, does not respond to your prayers, and will continue to exist beyond the cessation of your senses, you can't believe that it was created by a consciousness?

Did I get it, T-Scots?

I think you did.

The only thing I can think of to refute it is akin to the argument someone (Dark Pheonix? I'm not sure) gave against the cosmological argument's first premise regarding "beginning to exist" which may apply to things within the set but not necessarily to the set itself (i.e. the universe = the set).

So it's possible that things within the set require the primacy of existence but the set itself (the universe) could have been caused by some disembodied consciousness (Aliza's god or Girly's sim-game).

:goes off to cuddle my pragmatism:

Yes

The problem I see with this DLJ is that it relies on an arbitrary and self serving definition of universe. I define the universe as the sum total of what exists. This definition is open ended and conceptually irreducible so it makes for a valid starting point. Defining the universe as all matter, energy, space and time renders the concept universe conceptually reducible and destroys it as a starting point. It's like defining the universe in such as to make a place for gods to live outside it and thus to remove gods from the realm of cognition and reason and logic. None of us can go outside the universe to perceive such a thing. What then is the concept which is your starting point? It can't be a god because the concept god is not conceptually irreducible either. The concept universe so defined is not universal. Also consciousness, so far as I know, is neither matter nor energy nor space nor time. It is its own special kind of existent. What reason is there for excluding it from the universe and placing it outside the universe. None that I can see. The requirements of cognition forbid the multiplying of concepts beyond what is necessary. We have a real need to have a concept for the everything and existence is the widest of all concepts. It denotes everything that exists in whatever form it exists. Every entity, attribute, action and every relationship is included. So as far as I can tell the concept existence is the only viable starting point. The only alternative to starting with existence is starting with non-existence. It should be clear that on the all inclusive definition of universe there can be nothing outside of it and no cause of it because causes presuppose the existence of something to do the causing. The question "who created the universe" then becomes invalid. Existence is the immovable mover, the first cause. Where did everything come from? Why from existence of course. If anyone wants to argue that it came from non-existence I'm willing to listen but watch those stolen concepts!

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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