For TheBorg,
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04-09-2016, 04:08 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 02:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-09-2016 01:36 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Here's where we disagree. It's embarrassingly simple to prove that there isn't or at least that the claims that there is are false.

Since this is embarrassingly simple, can you please go ahead and prove to me that there is no consciousness on the other end of the line listening to a person's prayer.

Aliza, what right have you got to ask me to prove something to you? What would the concept proof even mean in a subjective universe? If you want me to prove it to you that theism is false, you would be stealing concepts again. Now it has been over a week and no one has even attempted to answer my opening post.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

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04-09-2016, 04:24 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 03:07 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 02:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Since this is embarrassingly simple, can you please go ahead and prove to me that there is no consciousness on the other end of the line listening to a person's prayer.

I'm... with Aliza on this, actually. I can't imagine it's any easier than figuring out whether, say, the NSA is watching through your webcam or the FBI has planted tiny cameras in your home. Quite a bit harder, actually.

It is shockingly easy to prove that theism is false. But one must accept reason for any proof to matter. There are very few people who do. Actually all I really need to do is to prove that theism is inherently subjective. That's enough to dismiss it. I've already done that.

But for the record:

1. If a worldview is based on a false metaphysics, then it can not be true

2. Theism is based on a false metaphysics.

Therefor theism can not be true.

There you have it. This argument is valid and it's premises are true. Therefor its conclusion can not fail to be true

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-09-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 04:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 03:07 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  I'm... with Aliza on this, actually. I can't imagine it's any easier than figuring out whether, say, the NSA is watching through your webcam or the FBI has planted tiny cameras in your home. Quite a bit harder, actually.

It is shockingly easy to prove that theism is false. But one must accept reason for any proof to matter. There are very few people who do. Actually all I really need to do is to prove that theism is inherently subjective. That's enough to dismiss it. I've already done that.

But for the record:

1. If a worldview is based on a false metaphysics, then it can not be true

2. Theism is based on a false metaphysics.

Therefor theism can not be true.

There you have it. This argument is valid and it's premises are true. Therefor its conclusion can not fail to be true

Metaphysics is not falsifiable... so no.

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04-09-2016, 06:09 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 04:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 04:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is shockingly easy to prove that theism is false. But one must accept reason for any proof to matter. There are very few people who do. Actually all I really need to do is to prove that theism is inherently subjective. That's enough to dismiss it. I've already done that.

But for the record:

1. If a worldview is based on a false metaphysics, then it can not be true

2. Theism is based on a false metaphysics.

Therefor theism can not be true.

There you have it. This argument is valid and it's premises are true. Therefor its conclusion can not fail to be true

Metaphysics is not falsifiable... so no.

I'm not talking about metaphysics as in woo woo. I'm talking about metaphysics as in the first branch of philosophy. I'm talking about the fundamental principles that are at the base of any system of ideas. If those are false then the whole system is false. We can falsify the basic premise of theism, the primacy of consciousness, at the perceptual level. Anyone can do this for themselves at any time and at any place. You can easily falsify the primacy of existence principle by demonstrating that a single grain of sand was created by an act of will. So yes.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-09-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 04:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 04:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is shockingly easy to prove that theism is false. But one must accept reason for any proof to matter. There are very few people who do. Actually all I really need to do is to prove that theism is inherently subjective. That's enough to dismiss it. I've already done that.

But for the record:

1. If a worldview is based on a false metaphysics, then it can not be true

2. Theism is based on a false metaphysics.

Therefor theism can not be true.

There you have it. This argument is valid and it's premises are true. Therefor its conclusion can not fail to be true

Metaphysics is not falsifiable... so no.

And if it were true that metaphysics is un falsifiable, then it could not be considered knowledge in the first place. It would be outside the realm of cognition.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-09-2016, 06:13 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2016 06:21 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 06:09 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You can easily falsify the primacy of existence principle by demonstrating that a single grain of sand was created by an act of will. So yes.

What about a transistor? Or a diamond out of sand?

#sigh
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04-09-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 04:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 02:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Since this is embarrassingly simple, can you please go ahead and prove to me that there is no consciousness on the other end of the line listening to a person's prayer.

Aliza, what right have you got to ask me to prove something to you? What would the concept proof even mean in a subjective universe? If you want me to prove it to you that theism is false, you would be stealing concepts again. Now it has been over a week and no one has even attempted to answer my opening post.

Honestly, I'm floundering around in this conversation. I have no background in philosophy and I'm struggling to keep recently learned concepts in my head. It's like there's no traction in there and they just slip right out.

To me, G-d is like an alien race. Maybe it's out there, and maybe it's not. We just don't know and our opinions on the matter won't change a damn thing.

And it doesn't matter anyway. Someone else's believing in G-d or aliens doesn't impact my life at all, so why should I care what they think? Why should they care what I think?

The reason I can't answer your opening post is because I have no idea what you've asked. Even when you try to explain it, there's still too much jargon in there to help me grasp it.
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04-09-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 06:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 06:09 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You can easily falsify the primacy of existence principle by demonstrating that a single grain of sand was created by an act of will. So yes.

What about a transistor? Or a diamond out of sand?
what about them? Do people speak transistors and diamonds into existence? Do people wish them into existence?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-09-2016, 06:33 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 04:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Metaphysics is not falsifiable... so no.

"Metaphysics, by any other name, would still be a rose."
William Shake n bake.

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04-09-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 06:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 04:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Aliza, what right have you got to ask me to prove something to you? What would the concept proof even mean in a subjective universe? If you want me to prove it to you that theism is false, you would be stealing concepts again. Now it has been over a week and no one has even attempted to answer my opening post.

Honestly, I'm floundering around in this conversation. I have no background in philosophy and I'm struggling to keep recently learned concepts in my head. It's like there's no traction in there and they just slip right out.

To me, G-d is like an alien race. Maybe it's out there, and maybe it's not. We just don't know and our opinions on the matter won't change a damn thing.

And it doesn't matter anyway. Someone else's believing in G-d or aliens doesn't impact my life at all, so why should I care what they think? Why should they care what I think?

The reason I can't answer your opening post is because I have no idea what you've asked. Even when you try to explain it, there's still too much jargon in there to help me grasp it.

It matters because what people do and how they act is determined in large part by the ideas they hold. When the majority of the people in the world hold false ideas, it's not going to end pretty, as it hasn't throughout Human History.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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