For TheBorg,
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05-09-2016, 09:34 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2016 09:54 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: For TheBorg,
(05-09-2016 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-09-2016 06:09 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm not talking about metaphysics as in woo woo. I'm talking about metaphysics as in the first branch of philosophy. I'm talking about the fundamental principles that are at the base of any system of ideas. If those are false then the whole system is false. We can falsify the basic premise of theism, the primacy of consciousness, at the perceptual level. Anyone can do this for themselves at any time and at any place. You can easily falsify the primacy of existence principle by demonstrating that a single grain of sand was created by an act of will. So yes.

It works both ways, though. To prove that it wasn't created some way, some how, during some time as an act of will is unfalsifiable.

Nope. You don't get to manufacture possibilities out of your imagination. Logic doesn't work that way. It rests on the fact that there is a fundamental distinction between the real and the imaginary, i.e., it rests on the primacy of existence. We can all imagine that it was created by an act of conscious will but the imaginary is not real.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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05-09-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(05-09-2016 09:34 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  ...
but the imaginary is not real.

To falsify that hypothesis, I recommend a trip to Vancouver Island.

Smokin

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05-09-2016, 10:22 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(05-09-2016 10:18 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-09-2016 09:34 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  ...
but the imaginary is not real.

To falsify that hypothesis, I recommend a trip to Vancouver Island.

Smokin

Never been there. Is is la la land. I've been to Boulder, Colorado. What a freak show that place is.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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05-09-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(05-09-2016 09:25 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(05-09-2016 09:06 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Yes but given what we know as in physical facts its so highly improbable as to dwarf any argument as to it being unfalsifiable. Imo

The fact that such a notion violates known facts falsifies it. It is impossible in principle.
Agreed just didn't want to come across as a jerk, KC is a really decent guy.
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05-09-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(04-09-2016 02:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-09-2016 01:36 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Here's where we disagree. It's embarrassingly simple to prove that there isn't or at least that the claims that there is are false.

Since this is embarrassingly simple, can you please go ahead and prove to me that there is no consciousness on the other end of the line listening to a person's prayer.

I claim there is. It's just that that transmitter and the receiver are of the same consciousness.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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05-09-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(05-09-2016 11:50 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(05-09-2016 09:25 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  The fact that such a notion violates known facts falsifies it. It is impossible in principle.
Agreed just didn't want to come across as a jerk, KC is a really decent guy.

Agreed. I've already applauded him for his honesty.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-09-2016, 07:19 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(27-08-2016 07:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  A question for TheBorg,.... on what basis can a theist distinguish between the real and the imaginary?....
For a start you should to less often think of yourself as of an atheist. Try to stick less closer to the atheism.
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21-09-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(21-09-2016 07:19 AM)theBorg Wrote:  For a start you should to less often think of yourself as of an atheist. Try to stick less closer to the atheism.

Why?
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21-09-2016, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2016 08:08 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: For TheBorg,
(21-09-2016 07:19 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 07:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  A question for TheBorg,.... on what basis can a theist distinguish between the real and the imaginary?....
For a start you should to less often think of yourself as of an atheist. Try to stick less closer to the atheism.

My atheism only comes to mind when I am on forums like this seeing what some theists say!

Otherwise I am, as Americans might say, "just another guy" going about the business of everyday life with good manners, charity, respect for others etc. Dear me, you might even take me for a fine example of a theist!

I do not ask strangers what their beliefs are before deciding how to treat them. However, if they try to thrust their beliefs on me they get one polite response , then one firmer one before being told to "Fuck off!" if they persist.

Edit: emboldened added out of respect for our valued, enlightened theist members and any honest theists who might make genuine enquirey as to the nature of our disbelief - without prosetylising or evangelising...

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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21-09-2016, 07:44 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2016 07:54 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: For TheBorg,
(21-09-2016 07:19 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 07:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  A question for TheBorg,.... on what basis can a theist distinguish between the real and the imaginary?....
For a start you should to less often think of yourself as of an atheist. Try to stick less closer to the atheism.

So this is a common tactic used by theists but I'm on to your game TheBorg. You want, desparately, to redirect the conversation onto my worldview and away from the logical problems of yours. Actually I don't define myself by what I reject but by what I accept in terms of philosophy. I think of myself as an Objectivist. I invite you to try and find the same kinds of problem I've pointed out with your starting point in mine. And since the rest of my philosophy is fully consistent with its founding principles, and those principles are incontestably true, you'll be hard pressed to do that. But by all means try. I'n not afraid to be consistent with What Objectivism teaches. I would have no problem answering the question I posed in my OP without hesitation. Of course you'd have to re-word the question given that Objectivism does not assume metaphysical subjectivism. If you were to reword the question it would answer itself. I make the distinction between the real and the imaginary on the basis of the primacy of existence which is fully consistent with what my philosophy holds.

Theists wish they had a starting point like mine but the opposite is true and the dirty little secret is theist must assume the truth of mine in order to claim their God exists. How sweet is that!?

I think you should stick closer to the theism like King's chosen does and answer the question honestly. On theism's premises there is no basis for distinguishing the real from the imaginary. Why do you not have the courage of your convictions? Stop borrowing from my worldview and be consistent with your own. You do believe it is true do you not?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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