For TheBorg,
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29-08-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(29-08-2016 02:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 01:35 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Please please please don't say anything remotely like an invitation for Girly to post something that leaves us in a position of it no longer being something left to our imagination. Shocking

[Image: thefuckyousay.jpg]

Thumbsup That right there is the "Dad Glare"! I could silence my sons at the dinner table just by giving them that look. Laugh out load My wife would be going intercontinental ballistic mom (ICBM), and I just had to give them the look, and silence reigned.
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29-08-2016, 09:47 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
Two days and 378 views later, my simple question goes unanswered.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-08-2016, 10:40 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(29-08-2016 09:47 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Two days and 378 views later, my simple question goes unanswered.

And its likely to remain that way my friend, this is what we call a drive by artist a religious or superstitious asshole with no desire for sensible discourse who wants to punk us for laughs its highly sad but quite common on here.
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31-08-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(31-08-2016 10:40 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 09:47 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Two days and 378 views later, my simple question goes unanswered.

And its likely to remain that way my friend, this is what we call a drive by artist a religious or superstitious asshole with no desire for sensible discourse who wants to punk us for laughs its highly sad but quite common on here.

Yes I'd be willing to bet you are right. But surely some other theists have read it. So we need to allow more time. Surely if theist can make this distinction on the basis of theism's own premises, they would not withhold this information. If this question were asked obout my philosophy, I'd be eager to answer. It's just that there aren't many theists on here, I'm sure.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-08-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(31-08-2016 11:32 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 10:40 AM)adey67 Wrote:  And its likely to remain that way my friend, this is what we call a drive by artist a religious or superstitious asshole with no desire for sensible discourse who wants to punk us for laughs its highly sad but quite common on here.

Yes I'd be willing to bet you are right. But surely some other theists have read it. So we need to allow more time. Surely if theist can make this distinction on the basis of theism's own premises, they would not withhold this information. If this question were asked obout my philosophy, I'd be eager to answer. It's just that there aren't many theists on here, I'm sure.
There are some super decent theists here like aliza and kingschosen but any other I don't know of.
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31-08-2016, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2016 02:47 PM by Mr. Nobody.)
RE: For TheBorg,
(27-08-2016 09:22 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yep, blurring the line between the imaginary and the real is theism's stock in trade and believing that something is possible just because one can imagine it is a consequence of theism's alliegence to the primacy of consciousness. unfortunately, this view is not limited to theists alone. I hold that if one does not recognize explicitly and consistently the primacy of existence, one will not be able to avoid, somewhere in their worldview, blurring this line.

I think it's why theists react the way they do to any unbeliever who expresses certainty in their unbelief. It's why they constantly want atheists to say they're agnostic instead of atheist. As long as you are willing to grant the possibility that a God exists, even though there is no alternative but the imagination if one tries to comprehend their God. We can't see it or perceive it in any way. We can't deduce it from any rationally informed premises. We can't infer it without trading in stolen concepts. What's left?

There was a time when the Caveman couldn't see or perceive the existence of the planet we now call Jupiter. What happened to be left was the fact that indeed it does exist. An atheist who certainly is certain that a God could not exist commits the same error in thinking that a Christian makes about non-existence of evolution. They both are overestimating their ability to perceive. There is merit in forming theories and laws based on scientific observations. There is danger in the belief that our observations are all encompassing, precluding the possibility of all other things because we can not observe it at this time.

To me it seems that only the Agnostic could hold the view of the primacy of existence. Being that for the Certain Athiest existence only extends to what we know to be true. Existence is determinant on knowledge, not an independently and inherent truth, whether we can perceive it or not.
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31-08-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(31-08-2016 02:31 PM)Mr. Nobody Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 09:22 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yep, blurring the line between the imaginary and the real is theism's stock in trade and believing that something is possible just because one can imagine it is a consequence of theism's alliegence to the primacy of consciousness. unfortunately, this view is not limited to theists alone. I hold that if one does not recognize explicitly and consistently the primacy of existence, one will not be able to avoid, somewhere in their worldview, blurring this line.

I think it's why theists react the way they do to any unbeliever who expresses certainty in their unbelief. It's why they constantly want atheists to say they're agnostic instead of atheist. As long as you are willing to grant the possibility that a God exists, even though there is no alternative but the imagination if one tries to comprehend their God. We can't see it or perceive it in any way. We can't deduce it from any rationally informed premises. We can't infer it without trading in stolen concepts. What's left?

There was a time when the Caveman couldn't see or perceive the existence of the planet we now call Jupiter. What happened to be left was the fact that indeed it does exist. An atheist who certainly is certain that a God could not exist commits the same error in thinking that a Christian makes about non-existence of evolution. They both are overestimating their ability to perceive. There is merit in forming theories and laws based on scientific observations. There is danger in the belief that our observations are all encompassing, precluding the possibility of all other things because we can not observe it at this time.

The flaw in your argument is that cavemen likely didn't care if there was a planet outside of the one their cave was located.

I don't believe that gods exist based on evidence that they were invented by people. Why else would something that is capable of knowing, doing and seeing all, would also possess such incredibly petty human emotions?

Lastly what's the difference between something you cannot prove to exist and something that doesn't actually exist at all?

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
― Mark Twain


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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31-08-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(31-08-2016 02:31 PM)Mr. Nobody Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 09:22 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yep, blurring the line between the imaginary and the real is theism's stock in trade and believing that something is possible just because one can imagine it is a consequence of theism's alliegence to the primacy of consciousness. unfortunately, this view is not limited to theists alone. I hold that if one does not recognize explicitly and consistently the primacy of existence, one will not be able to avoid, somewhere in their worldview, blurring this line.

I think it's why theists react the way they do to any unbeliever who expresses certainty in their unbelief. It's why they constantly want atheists to say they're agnostic instead of atheist. As long as you are willing to grant the possibility that a God exists, even though there is no alternative but the imagination if one tries to comprehend their God. We can't see it or perceive it in any way. We can't deduce it from any rationally informed premises. We can't infer it without trading in stolen concepts. What's left?

There was a time when the Caveman couldn't see or perceive the existence of the planet we now call Jupiter. What happened to be left was the fact that indeed it does exist. An atheist who certainly is certain that a God could not exist commits the same error in thinking that a Christian makes about non-existence of evolution. They both are overestimating their ability to perceive. There is merit in forming theories and laws based on scientific observations. There is danger in the belief that our observations are all encompassing, precluding the possibility of all other things because we can not observe it at this time.

Well we are not limited to perception, fortunately. Since I'm not arguing that there isn't a god because I don't see one or feel one or perceive one any other way, I'm not committing the same error in thinking.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-08-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(31-08-2016 02:38 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The flaw in your argument is that cavemen likely didn't care if there was a planet outside of the one their cave was located.

I don't believe that gods exist based on evidence that they were invented by people. Why else would something that is capable of knowing, doing and seeing all, would also possess such incredibly petty human emotions?

Lastly what's the difference between something you cannot prove to exist and something that doesn't actually exist at all?

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
― Mark Twain

Why does the caring of a thing matter in terms of its existence?

That's a fine stance to have. I see no problem in not believing there is a God. I see a problem in believing that you are certain there is no God.

The difference is that it exists regardless of you know it or not. That is something
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31-08-2016, 02:54 PM
RE: For TheBorg,
(31-08-2016 02:49 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Well we are not limited to perception, fortunately. Since I'm not arguing that there isn't a god because I don't see one or feel one or perceive one any other way, I'm not committing the same error in thinking.

I guess I was confused by the fact that you said you were certain in you unbelief. I took it as you were certain there was no God, not that you were certain that you are not led to believe in a God at this time. My Apologies

I did a quick edit on my post by the way, adding a bit about this idea of primacy of existence. you responded before I could post it.. If you feel inclined perhaps you could give me your thoughts on this.
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