For TheBorg,
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02-09-2016, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2016 08:14 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: For TheBorg,
Hi Aliza. Thank you for your comments. I'm sorry I didn't respond last night but I was having trouble connecting to the site. I'll have to do this in stages as I have to leave in just a few minutes to get to work.

(01-09-2016 11:08 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 11:33 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  This is a problem. This is your worldview's most fundamental premise and you don't understand it. The words metaphysical subjectivism might sound confusing but the issue is very simple. the view that the universe was created by an act of consciousness, is maintained by an act of consciousness and can be altered by an act of consciousness assumes metaphysical subjectivism. That theism does this is undeniable. The distinction between the real and the imaginary only obtains on the basis of metaphysical objectivism, the view that things exist independent of anyone's conscious actions such as wishing, wanting, liking, praying, believing, hoping, etc. I don't know that I can dumb it down any more than this. Your worldview takes a position on this issue that is incompatible with the basis for the distinction between the real and the imaginary. So the question is, given theism's inherent subjectivism how does a theist make that distinction, a distinction which is foundational to truth, logic, knowledge and reason while staying consistent with theism's fundamental premise.

I didn’t understand it because I have no background in philosophy, but I think I get it now that you’ve explained it a little more. Yes, I believe the universe was created by an act of consciousness.

That is understandable. I realize these are novel ideas. To be honest if you did have a background in philosophy these ideas would probably still be novel for you. That's because almost every other philosophy takes this issue completely for granted which is why they get so much wrong. I've lived with these ideas for so long that I can't imagine that anyone would have difficulty with understanding them. But then I constantly have to remind myself that it took me years to integrate them.

So since you believe that the universe was created by an act of consciousness, we have confirmed that you do hold the subjective view of reality.

(01-09-2016 11:08 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 11:33 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You claim that it is not your position that wanting, wishing, desiring or hoping for something will make it true. This contradicts theism's base. Do you accept what your worldview holds or do you deny it? Can you be consistent with theism's foundation?

Yes, that’s my position. Wanting, wishing or hoping that G-d exists will not make it so any more than wishing will make a rock turn into a human. I don’t think this contradicts anything… It just seems like common sense to me. Just because I think that a consciousness did create the universe doesn’t mean that I think that consciousness transferred any power to me to wish and hope things into existence.

And here you affirm the primacy of existence principle, which is incompatible with the view you just affirmed above.

That's all for now. I'll try to find some time at lunch to answer the rest.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-09-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(01-09-2016 07:51 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 11:43 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I too detect the odours of bullshit and cheesy smegma but am unable to place their point of origin, pray do enlighten me dear sirs, Big Grin

In my personal estimation, Mr Nobody smells like HJ. I could be wrong, so I'll just peek in once in awhile.

BoT, Rhetorical question- has theBorg responded to this thread? Crickets

Has anyone seen theBorg and Mr. nobody together in the same room?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-09-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:08 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 11:08 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I didn’t understand it because I have no background in philosophy, but I think I get it now that you’ve explained it a little more. Yes, I believe the universe was created by an act of consciousness.

That is understandable. I realize these are novel ideas. To be honest if you did have a background in philosophy these ideas would probably still be novel for you. That's because almost every other philosophy takes this issue completely for granted which is why they get so much wrong. I've lived with these ideas for so long that I can't imagine that anyone would have difficulty with understanding them. But then I constantly have to remind myself that it took me years to integrate them.

So since you believe that the universe was created by an act of consciousness, we have confirmed that you do hold the subjective view of reality.

(01-09-2016 11:08 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, that’s my position. Wanting, wishing or hoping that G-d exists will not make it so any more than wishing will make a rock turn into a human. I don’t think this contradicts anything… It just seems like common sense to me. Just because I think that a consciousness did create the universe doesn’t mean that I think that consciousness transferred any power to me to wish and hope things into existence.

And here you affirm the primacy of existence principle, which is incompatible with the view you just affirmed above.

That's all for now. I'll try to find some time at lunch to answer the rest.

Why is it incompatible?
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02-09-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:15 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 08:08 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  That is understandable. I realize these are novel ideas. To be honest if you did have a background in philosophy these ideas would probably still be novel for you. That's because almost every other philosophy takes this issue completely for granted which is why they get so much wrong. I've lived with these ideas for so long that I can't imagine that anyone would have difficulty with understanding them. But then I constantly have to remind myself that it took me years to integrate them.

So since you believe that the universe was created by an act of consciousness, we have confirmed that you do hold the subjective view of reality.


And here you affirm the primacy of existence principle, which is incompatible with the view you just affirmed above.

That's all for now. I'll try to find some time at lunch to answer the rest.

Why is it incompatible?

Because A is A and the universe is the universe. Just as you can't have your cake and eat it too, the universe can't be subjective and objective at the same time. It's either one or the other. The middle is excluded. It is crucial to think of primacy not as some power that some minds have and others do not. It is part of the fundamental nature of reality.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-09-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(01-09-2016 07:51 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 11:43 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I too detect the odours of bullshit and cheesy smegma but am unable to place their point of origin, pray do enlighten me dear sirs, Big Grin

In my personal estimation, Mr Nobody smells like HJ. I could be wrong, so I'll just peek in once in awhile.

BoT, Rhetorical question- has theBorg responded to this thread? Crickets

Not likely to, drive by theist I reckon. Drinking Beverage
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02-09-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 08:15 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Why is it incompatible?

Because A is A and the universe is the universe. Just as you can't have your cake and eat it too, the universe can't be subjective and objective at the same time. It's either one or the other. The middle is excluded. It is crucial to think of primacy not as some power that some minds have and others do not. It is part of the fundamental nature of reality.

Can someone please help me understand this? All I see are big, scary words on the page mixed in with some more familiar words like "universe" and "cake". I know what cake is. Smile
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02-09-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:28 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 08:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Because A is A and the universe is the universe. Just as you can't have your cake and eat it too, the universe can't be subjective and objective at the same time. It's either one or the other. The middle is excluded. It is crucial to think of primacy not as some power that some minds have and others do not. It is part of the fundamental nature of reality.

Can someone please help me understand this? All I see are big, scary words on the page mixed in with some more familiar words like "universe" and "cake". I know what cake is. Smile

What's the point in having cake if you can't eat it ? Bloody silly expression if you ask me probably should put that in the phrases and words you hate thread. Big Grin
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02-09-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:28 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 08:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Because A is A and the universe is the universe. Just as you can't have your cake and eat it too, the universe can't be subjective and objective at the same time. It's either one or the other. The middle is excluded. It is crucial to think of primacy not as some power that some minds have and others do not. It is part of the fundamental nature of reality.

Can someone please help me understand this? All I see are big, scary words on the page mixed in with some more familiar words like "universe" and "cake". I know what cake is. Smile

You're not alone. I don't quite get it either. I think our knowledge and understanding of reality is very limited. There are all kinds of things we don't know, and possibly things we can never know. Hence I am very suspicious of all-encompassing metaphysical statements like the ones True Scotsman is making. I just don't think it's as simple as he thinks it is, or that we can have that degree of certainty about anything.
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02-09-2016, 09:04 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:55 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 08:28 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Can someone please help me understand this? All I see are big, scary words on the page mixed in with some more familiar words like "universe" and "cake". I know what cake is. Smile

You're not alone. I don't quite get it either. I think our knowledge and understanding of reality is very limited. There are all kinds of things we don't know, and possibly things we can never know. Hence I am very suspicious of all-encompassing metaphysical statements like the ones True Scotsman is making. I just don't think it's as simple as he thinks it is, or that we can have that degree of certainty about anything.

I like it that there's shit we don't know and possibly might never know life should always have a bit of mystery IMHO it keeps things interesting.
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02-09-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: For TheBorg,
(02-09-2016 08:55 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 08:28 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Can someone please help me understand this? All I see are big, scary words on the page mixed in with some more familiar words like "universe" and "cake". I know what cake is. Smile

You're not alone. I don't quite get it either. I think our knowledge and understanding of reality is very limited. There are all kinds of things we don't know, and possibly things we can never know. Hence I am very suspicious of all-encompassing metaphysical statements like the ones True Scotsman is making. I just don't think it's as simple as he thinks it is, or that we can have that degree of certainty about anything.

Just because our knowledge is limited, does not mean that we can not have certainty about some things that we do know. At least as long as we accept reason and logic we can. If we allow the arbitrary into the realm of cognition, all bets are off.

The principles I'm using here are axiomatic. There is a lot of confusion out there about what axiomatic means. An axiom identifies a fact that is perceptually self-evident, conceptually irreducible, universal, objective and undeniably true. There are only a mere handful of axioms and they are all base level recognitions. They are invulnerable to attack because they are defended by retortion. They would have to be true in order for anyone to deny them. So if you claim that we can't know that the axioms are true for certain, just go and try to refute them without affirming them. Go ahead. They are the axiom of existence, that there is a reality or existence exists. The axiom of consciousness, consciousness is consciousness of something. The axiom of identity, that to exist is to be something specific, that a thing is itself and not something other than itself. Go ahead and try to refute any of these without making use of them. It can't be done.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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