For all the big government losers on this site
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04-04-2012, 03:22 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 03:27 PM by germanyt.)
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(04-04-2012 03:18 PM)kineo Wrote:  I think those social welfare programs are important and necessary- but that doesn't mean they couldn't use some overhaul and efficiency. They need to be there for the benefit of those who are unable to be completely boot-strappy all by themselves. People who stay entirely dependent on the programs need incentive to move away from them and assistance to break out. That assistance doesn't need to mean handing them more money- but it could mean handing over education or other programs designed to help them improve their position in life.
We already do that via Pell Grants. One can receive Section 8, cash assistance, government cell phone, food stamps, free day care, free medical care, and get the maximum amount of federal student aid. Can you imagine how many students who are working, don't have kids, and are not married ask me why the hell people get rewarded for irresponsible behavior like teen pregnancy? Think about it.


Person A drops out of school at 16 and gets pregnant. By 24 she has 3 kids and hasn't worked a day in her life. She collects child support from 3 different dads and lives off of taxpayer money. She gets $5500 dollars in grant money to attend school.

Person B graduated high school with a 3.5 GPA. She is not married and doesn't have any kids. Let's assume she is a virgin. She works a full time job and volunteers her time to Habitat for Humanity on the weekends. She still lives with her mom because she is saving up money to put 10% down on a townhouse near campus. She nets about the same income as Person A but qualifies for ZERO Pell grant.

Justified? I suppose it depends on your philosophical or political point of view. Neither can be right and neither can be wrong.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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04-04-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(04-04-2012 01:52 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 01:16 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  Well not only is having a military a socialist program, the military is also a dictatorship and works pretty damn good. Civilians are all up in arms about such things but most of them have no clue. Just to list a few other social programs we have here in the states.

Public roads & Highway systems
Public Schools
Public Libraries
Public Transportation
Social Security
Medicare
Post Office
Fire, Police, and Rescue Departments
Welfare, WIC, and Food Stamps
Federal agricultural subsidies
Unemployment benefits



My VA disability benefits are social programs also, damn the luck!

I don't have a fundamental opposition to those programs. I may disagree on execution in some areas but overall I'm not anti welfare or anti social program. And yea the military works well but one must volunteer to give up certain rights in order to be in the military. It's by no means a good model of how government should function.

(04-04-2012 01:16 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You disagree that the military is the largest socialist mess in the U.S? Complete, 100% socialist healthcare, free to retirees up to 65? Stay in for 20 years and you get a pension for the rest of... not only your life, but your spouses' life too? When you hit the age of 65, the government offers subsidies for healthcare coverage? In most positions, you get job security? Free college tuition? Free housing? Cola pay in foreign countries? Absolutely.

Join the military, the most ridiculous socialist system in a crony capitalist society!


At least 90% of people who complain about government assistance and coverage talk out of both sides of their mouths. "How dare the government take our rights away!", and then "How dare the government give us our rights?" Western society provides this stuff to you, and you bitch about it because you are not in a situation where you need it. Yet.

[Image: americans-are-stupid-america-stupid-funn...921054.jpg]

I disagree that I really can't speak on the matter. I didn't say the military couldn't be viewed as a quasi social program. However, it operates in much the same way that strict private companies do which is entirely within the rights of the business owner. Since no one is forced (not now at least) into the military then they really can't complain about practices inside a company that they volunteered for. And a contract is a contract so if you want out you will just have to breach that contract.



Also, I didn't really comment on welfare or socialism. Just that I prefer to live in a country/economy that provides the opportunity to build wealth and live comfortably. Not one that just hands over a 2 bedroom apartment, health care, food stamps, cash assistance, etc and then doesn't even charge those citizens federal income tax. They make use of an incredible amount of government programs and then pay nothing into the system. So how is it fair? Fair seems to be a frequently tossed around word in liberal economics.
I am not complaining about the system, I am pointing out your generality of socialized services, and the perks of having said services.

You have commented on welfare before. Socialism is the main cause of all these free/assistance services, see Karl Marx.wiki.

Yes, and there are freeloaders without socialized medicine and welfare. I live in Europe and am from the U.S, I should know the repercussions of both.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
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04-04-2012, 04:14 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
We need get past the "big government" "small government" debate and start considering the "right government".
If you think every problems is a problem for the federal government to solve you're wrong.
We can solve many of our problems locally, but sometimes we do need the big federal project.
Socialism is not the answer. This puts too much power in the political system and in the political leaders. When everything is a political decision we are screwed. What works is well regulated free markets. The key here is "well regulated", not unregulated, over regulated, or politically regulated.

Keynes was wrong. His models are too simple. He assumes efficient government spending. We have spent over $4 trillion in deficit spending over the past 3 years. Real unemployment is still over 10%. Why did this not work? Ask Freddie Hayek.
Check out Tim Hartford on www.ted.com "Trial and error and the god complex"
Our governments (America and Europe) are full of the god complex people.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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04-04-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(04-04-2012 03:41 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I am not complaining about the system, I am pointing out your generality of socialized services, and the perks of having said services.

You have commented on welfare before. Socialism is the main cause of all these free/assistance services, see Karl Marx.wiki.

Yes, and there are freeloaders without socialized medicine and welfare. I live in Europe and am from the U.S, I should know the repercussions of both.
But I have never indicated that I'm anti-welfare. My wife and daughter are on medicaid at the moment. I simply can't afford paying the 700 dollar premiums or 500/month in prescriptions. My wife had to go to a charity hospital to get a new insulin prescription (we were paying full price for scripts) because her refills were up and they required a check stub. I provided it and they told us we qualified. The difference is that when my wife starts working and we can afford it we will be on a group insurance policy and off medicaid. It's a goal of ours and too many people don't have that desire. I've even been approved for food stamps for 6 months because of 1 bad paycheck. Used the card for 1 month and cancelled it. No one but anarchists and hardcore libertarians are pushing for privatization of social programs like police and fire departments. I don't agree with that position. And welfare programs used properly are extremely beneficial to the economy overall by keeping people from going bankrupt.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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05-04-2012, 12:21 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(04-04-2012 11:59 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 11:50 AM)znk666 Wrote:  to make sure all citizens live decently.
I'm happier in a system that allows the opportunity to live decently.
WOW....You got balls I will say that. Its not often you come across someone who just straight up says FUCK THE POOR!

You realize that being poor is almost all about chance right?
No, of course you don't, because you think working hard accomplishes something,
Of course if that were true, then how is it you, along with many others, work two jobs and still have nothing?
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05-04-2012, 01:16 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(05-04-2012 12:21 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 11:59 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I'm happier in a system that allows the opportunity to live decently.
WOW....You got balls I will say that. Its not often you come across someone who just straight up says FUCK THE POOR!

You realize that being poor is almost all about chance right?
No, of course you don't, because you think working hard accomplishes something,
Of course if that were true, then how is it you, along with many others, work two jobs and still have nothing?
Urine idiot.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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05-04-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(04-04-2012 03:22 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 03:18 PM)kineo Wrote:  I think those social welfare programs are important and necessary- but that doesn't mean they couldn't use some overhaul and efficiency. They need to be there for the benefit of those who are unable to be completely boot-strappy all by themselves. People who stay entirely dependent on the programs need incentive to move away from them and assistance to break out. That assistance doesn't need to mean handing them more money- but it could mean handing over education or other programs designed to help them improve their position in life.
We already do that via Pell Grants. One can receive Section 8, cash assistance, government cell phone, food stamps, free day care, free medical care, and get the maximum amount of federal student aid. Can you imagine how many students who are working, don't have kids, and are not married ask me why the hell people get rewarded for irresponsible behavior like teen pregnancy? Think about it.


Person A drops out of school at 16 and gets pregnant. By 24 she has 3 kids and hasn't worked a day in her life. She collects child support from 3 different dads and lives off of taxpayer money. She gets $5500 dollars in grant money to attend school.

Person B graduated high school with a 3.5 GPA. She is not married and doesn't have any kids. Let's assume she is a virgin. She works a full time job and volunteers her time to Habitat for Humanity on the weekends. She still lives with her mom because she is saving up money to put 10% down on a townhouse near campus. She nets about the same income as Person A but qualifies for ZERO Pell grant.

Justified? I suppose it depends on your philosophical or political point of view. Neither can be right and neither can be wrong.
I agree,
We need to bring down the cost of education in this country. The price is absurdly out of control these days, and we definitely need to do something about it.

We also need to stop these baby factories as well.


We really need that big govt to steep in and fix these two problems.
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05-04-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(05-04-2012 01:54 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 03:22 PM)germanyt Wrote:  We already do that via Pell Grants. One can receive Section 8, cash assistance, government cell phone, food stamps, free day care, free medical care, and get the maximum amount of federal student aid. Can you imagine how many students who are working, don't have kids, and are not married ask me why the hell people get rewarded for irresponsible behavior like teen pregnancy? Think about it.


Person A drops out of school at 16 and gets pregnant. By 24 she has 3 kids and hasn't worked a day in her life. She collects child support from 3 different dads and lives off of taxpayer money. She gets $5500 dollars in grant money to attend school.

Person B graduated high school with a 3.5 GPA. She is not married and doesn't have any kids. Let's assume she is a virgin. She works a full time job and volunteers her time to Habitat for Humanity on the weekends. She still lives with her mom because she is saving up money to put 10% down on a townhouse near campus. She nets about the same income as Person A but qualifies for ZERO Pell grant.

Justified? I suppose it depends on your philosophical or political point of view. Neither can be right and neither can be wrong.
I agree,
We need to bring down the cost of education in this country. The price is absurdly out of control these days, and we definitely need to do something about it.

We also need to stop these baby factories as well.


We really need that big govt to steep in and fix these two problems.
There are a number of ways to fix the problem. One is to get rid of federal student aid completely. Another is to deny additional student aid to anyone claiming a child tax credit already. Those two options might create more problems than they solve. When you look at the number of dollars the federal government loses on students it's hard not to justify getting rid of the program though.

I'm curious though, what do you suggest the government do to solve the cost of education?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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05-04-2012, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 02:22 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(05-04-2012 02:02 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 01:54 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  I agree,
We need to bring down the cost of education in this country. The price is absurdly out of control these days, and we definitely need to do something about it.

We also need to stop these baby factories as well.


We really need that big govt to steep in and fix these two problems.
There are a number of ways to fix the problem. One is to get rid of federal student aid completely. Another is to deny additional student aid to anyone claiming a child tax credit already. Those two options might create more problems than they solve. When you look at the number of dollars the federal government loses on students it's hard not to justify getting rid of the program though.

I'm curious though, what do you suggest the government do to solve the cost of education?
I am not that concerned about the person with kids trying to get an education. Sure she made some mistakes when she was young, but are you wanting to punish her forever? She needs to grow up and starting pumping out babies, sure, but I see no problem with helping her get an education to make her and her children's lives better.

As for how to reform education? I have no clue, but I would look overseas for an answer.


Look at this, £6,000 = $9494 USD

Oxford University is
planning to raise tuition fees to the maximum level of £9,000 per year -
balanced by a package of fee subsidies and bursaries. There will be reduced fee levels for students from families earning less than £25,000 per year.

Means-tested bursaries will also be available - so students will not have to take jobs during term time.

Oxford is the fourth university to announce that it intends to charge the maximum fee level from 2012.


Fee freeze for poorest
Under Oxford's fee plans, students from households earning
less than £16,000 per year would only pay £3,500 for their first year -
with the university subsidising the rest. Subsequent years would cost
£6,000 per year.


There will also be fee reductions for students from families earning up to £25,000 per year. A sliding scale of means-tested bursaries will also be on offer - up to a household income of £42,000.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12745611


Now compare that to say Harvard or one of our other ivy league schools at roughly $50,000. A kid form a low income family could go to Oxford University for about the same price as a kid in the US could go to an average university.
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05-04-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: For all the big government losers on this site
(05-04-2012 02:17 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 02:02 PM)germanyt Wrote:  There are a number of ways to fix the problem. One is to get rid of federal student aid completely. Another is to deny additional student aid to anyone claiming a child tax credit already. Those two options might create more problems than they solve. When you look at the number of dollars the federal government loses on students it's hard not to justify getting rid of the program though.

I'm curious though, what do you suggest the government do to solve the cost of education?
I am not that concerned about the person with kids trying to get an education. Sure she made some mistakes when she was young, but are you wanting to punish her forever? She needs to grow up and starting pumping out babies, sure, but I see no problem with helping her get an education to make her and her children's lives better.

As for how to reform education? I have no clue, but I would look overseas for an answer.


Look at this, £6,000 = $9494 USD

Oxford University is
planning to raise tuition fees to the maximum level of £9,000 per year -
balanced by a package of fee subsidies and bursaries. There will be reduced fee levels for students from families earning less than £25,000 per year.

Means-tested bursaries will also be available - so students will not have to take jobs during term time.

Oxford is the fourth university to announce that it intends to charge the maximum fee level from 2012.


Fee freeze for poorest
Under Oxford's fee plans, students from households earning
less than £16,000 per year would only pay £3,500 for their first year -
with the university subsidising the rest. Subsequent years would cost
£6,000 per year.


There will also be fee reductions for students from families earning up to £25,000 per year. A sliding scale of means-tested bursaries will also be on offer - up to a household income of £42,000.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12745611


Now compare that to say Harvard or one of our ivy league schools at roughly $50,000.
Its like night and day.
Does Oxford manage to fund itself with these tuition rates or are they federally subsidized? Why exactly is Harvard so expensive to attend? Is the university's overhead really that much or is it supply and demand dictating tuition? Why is any US school so expensive?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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