For free thinkers;
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08-03-2018, 09:47 PM
RE: For free thinkers;
(08-03-2018 09:45 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-03-2018 09:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yes.....I will have to be.....allow his freedom to make and learn from his mistakes himself it seems....the time for direction that will be heard has lapsed....I missed it....let it fall on me....alone....

We are relatively close and he does listen and actually understand and agree at times, but seems to be going through a great internal conflict.....to which I can relate....I try to be a good friend to him and a father.

I will try to influence him more positively about his future prospects regardless of his more recent "failings".
Optimism didn't really come to me naturally at first....



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Don't focus on his failings or your own. You might want to speak to a therapist yourself about all this. I really do wish you the best Pops. If you need to talk, you can always shoot me a pm.

Hug
Thanks

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08-03-2018, 10:02 PM
RE: For free thinkers;
(08-03-2018 09:46 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-03-2018 09:25 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I am aware that I need to find his motive....he doesn't want to talk about it yet.

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Thoreauvian could well be right. There is another possibility however... that he's just not interested in living. A general malaise. This might be rational rather than emotional and perhaps is aligned to nihilism.

When I was recovering from an OD my father got me to promise not to try again while my mother was still alive. And obviously I've kept that promise. I have since discovered that that state of mind correlates strongly with wheat intake (particularly bread) and is more intense with greater intake.

See if you can get that commitment. I'm not happy that my father took advantage of my weakened state but I do admit that it worked.

Hug

it's interesting you mentioned a wheat intolerance, food allergies, I believe, can have an affect on mental health. I don't know if there are any studies on it, but I certainly do know a few people who did change their diets (sometimes drastically so) and their depression did diminish greatly. Or maybe it's the action about being mindful about what they eat that helped improved their outlook? A distinct shift in focus maybe.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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08-03-2018, 10:03 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2018 10:47 PM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: For free thinkers;
(08-03-2018 09:46 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-03-2018 09:25 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I am aware that I need to find his motive....he doesn't want to talk about it yet.

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Thoreauvian could well be right. There is another possibility however... that he's just not interested in living. A general malaise. This might be rational rather than emotional and perhaps is aligned to nihilism.

When I was recovering from an OD my father got me to promise not to try again while my mother was still alive. And obviously I've kept that promise. I have since discovered that that state of mind correlates strongly with wheat intake (particularly bread) and is more intense with greater intake.

See if you can get that commitment. I'm not happy that my father took advantage of my weakened state but I do admit that it worked.

Hug
I agree that a nihilistic view can lead to such a conclusion....that's sorta one of the reasons I'm asking here...I never was one even as an atheist.

I was sorta suicidal before and have dealt with depression for my life, but I had a reason for feeling that way.

So what do you tell that person to motivate them about the potential of one's own life; the positive effect it can affect?....he has great intellectual potential and capacity to learn, and has only within the last 6 months really took a turn for the worse; showing relative disregard for simple basic things. He needs to be stimulated intellectually, but is setting idle generally at the house due to expulsion from school and being cut off from his phone (due to him getting into and doing all sorts of jacked up things). I know he needs his friendships, but he's going to end up in juvenile detention next time the cops get involved if I had to guess.

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09-03-2018, 12:19 AM
RE: For free thinkers;
(08-03-2018 09:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(08-03-2018 08:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  In addition to what anj wrote (and I agree, especially about listening instead of talking), I would like to ask a question. How do you know the adolescent has lost faith in life? Is that just a projection because they no longer believe in god?

The reason I ask this, is because my own grandmother said something similar to me, she said I must be depressed when I mentioned I wasn’t sure god was real.
I listen to him and have never spoken about religion with him.

I say he has lost faith because he made another attempt on his life; a rather serious one to the tone of 40 zanax. He is almost wholly indifferent and not wanting to talk about the reason at this time. He is at the Tau center for the second time.

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Pops I am so sorry to hear this. Let him know you have faith in him and care about him. Go ahead and get sloppy about it.

But as was said, listening is more important if he'll talk to you. If not he needs to talk with a pro who can draw him out and connect.

Do you have any idea at all what he is going through?

I wouldn't worry about telling him what meaning is available with a godless worldview. There is plenty but it really isn't about that.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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09-03-2018, 01:37 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2018 01:40 AM by morondog.)
RE: For free thinkers;
(08-03-2018 10:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So what do you tell that person to motivate them about the potential of one's own life; the positive effect it can affect?....he has great intellectual potential and capacity to learn, and has only within the last 6 months really took a turn for the worse; showing relative disregard for simple basic things. He needs to be stimulated intellectually, but is setting idle generally at the house due to expulsion from school and being cut off from his phone (due to him getting into and doing all sorts of jacked up things). I know he needs his friendships, but he's going to end up in juvenile detention next time the cops get involved if I had to guess.

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One thing that I think fuels a lot of depression, is feeling that you are not in control of your life. The kid's been expelled from school, lost his phone, generally idle. You expect him to get in trouble with the cops at some point. From his perspective there's not a lot of control he has over any of this. The cycle is: he does something -> everyone yells at him -> privileges get taken away -> repeat.

I think you need to address that somehow. Let him have a little control. I'm not sure how you could do that but some ideas are: maybe give him his phone back, try to set him up with some kind of basic job so that he has an income that's a. not dependent on you b. all from his own work. You could also offer to help him get set up in a place of his own if he keeps his nose clean - obviously depends on his age.

ETA: another option is to reward him for studying. Explicitly say something like "If you score well in your SAT exams this is the reward on offer" - and make it really worthwhile, something that he'll want.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-03-2018, 04:24 AM
RE: For free thinkers;
Out of interest, how old is he? I know I struggled with a lot of things, mentally, during my early/mid teens, mainly as I was worried about a lot of things. In hind sight, non of those things mattered and I think it was very silly now. I also have mental health problems, and can also see that I most likely suffered with these issues through this sort of time as well.

I think the main thing I can say is, try and talk, calmly to him and see what's getting him down. There is a large chance (depending on his age) he's over thinking a lot of different things and getting very stressed out. It's hard at certain ages where you think you know a lot of things, and yet also feel like you know nothing about many things as well.

In terms of religion, I know you are religious, [and depending on what his issues are/whether they are faith related], it might have to be communicated that if he has lost faith.....it's ok. Just because you believe doesn't mean he has too, and that you love him all the same. You of course can still pray for him if you wish, but that doesn't mean he has to follow the same rules. Maybe further down the line he'll come back to religion, but for now it might be worth just putting that out there.

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09-03-2018, 05:47 AM
RE: For free thinkers;
I know you aren't doing this, but I'll just reinforce that telling him if he just believed in god, he'd feel better is about the worst thing you could do.

When my son tried to kill himself (this was about 10 years ago), I knew the reasons for it. He had a difficult social situation and bullying at school, and at that point he was depressed and not on medication. Our solution was slow and involved psychological counseling, my putting the fear of Myself into the school system and getting the guidance counselor much more involved in my son's situation, and antidepressant medication for my son. Of course as well, and perhaps most important: absolute support from my husband and me, because my son really, really needed to feel that we were completely on his side.

About atheism: my son had a brief flirtation with Christianity and theism, which we did nothing to block, but he has been an atheist since about age 13. He is by no means a nihilist and has a firm sense of purpose and the confidence that he belongs in the world and is contributing to it.

My suggestions would be to emotionally support your son as much as possible, to let him feel you're standing with him as he works to get through this time. Save any blame or how-could-you questions for later (or never). Be around as much as you can, hang out and do stuff together, let him feel by your presence that he is a person that you love and that other people love. Feeling loved, I believe, is a great foundation for dealing with trouble. It's so easy, unfortunately, for kids to be loved without feeling loved.
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09-03-2018, 06:41 AM
RE: For free thinkers;
(09-03-2018 12:19 AM)whateverist Wrote:  
(08-03-2018 09:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I listen to him and have never spoken about religion with him.

I say he has lost faith because he made another attempt on his life; a rather serious one to the tone of 40 zanax. He is almost wholly indifferent and not wanting to talk about the reason at this time. He is at the Tau center for the second time.

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Pops I am so sorry to hear this. Let him know you have faith in him and care about him. Go ahead and get sloppy about it.

But as was said, listening is more important if he'll talk to you. If not he needs to talk with a pro who can draw him out and connect.

Do you have any idea at all what he is going through?

I wouldn't worry about telling him what meaning is available with a godless worldview. There is plenty but it really isn't about that.
"Pops I am so sorry to hear this. Let him know you have faith in him and care about him. Go ahead and get sloppy about it."

I did that yesterday. He is surrounded by "pros"...he attempted while at the therapists office. I will listen to him more and not bring up unneeded things.

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09-03-2018, 06:47 AM
RE: For free thinkers;
(09-03-2018 01:37 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-03-2018 10:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So what do you tell that person to motivate them about the potential of one's own life; the positive effect it can affect?....he has great intellectual potential and capacity to learn, and has only within the last 6 months really took a turn for the worse; showing relative disregard for simple basic things. He needs to be stimulated intellectually, but is setting idle generally at the house due to expulsion from school and being cut off from his phone (due to him getting into and doing all sorts of jacked up things). I know he needs his friendships, but he's going to end up in juvenile detention next time the cops get involved if I had to guess.

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One thing that I think fuels a lot of depression, is feeling that you are not in control of your life. The kid's been expelled from school, lost his phone, generally idle. You expect him to get in trouble with the cops at some point. From his perspective there's not a lot of control he has over any of this. The cycle is: he does something -> everyone yells at him -> privileges get taken away -> repeat.

I think you need to address that somehow. Let him have a little control. I'm not sure how you could do that but some ideas are: maybe give him his phone back, try to set him up with some kind of basic job so that he has an income that's a. not dependent on you b. all from his own work. You could also offer to help him get set up in a place of his own if he keeps his nose clean - obviously depends on his age.

ETA: another option is to reward him for studying. Explicitly say something like "If you score well in your SAT exams this is the reward on offer" - and make it really worthwhile, something that he'll want.

He shows interest in carpentry, but I detest the thought of him becoming a blue collar worker....I'll have to look past that. I have put him to work and am willing to again, but his whole motivation for getting money seems to be pot, as opposed to paying off his fine I have to pay for, or saving for a new phone or car or college.

The freedom I have him he has wholly exploited....this too I will have to her over... Thanks for the advice.

As far as reward for studies; I've done that since he was in school; giving him $100 dollars for straight A's on his report cards. He was a straight a student up until a year ago.

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09-03-2018, 06:51 AM
RE: For free thinkers;
(09-03-2018 04:24 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Out of interest, how old is he? I know I struggled with a lot of things, mentally, during my early/mid teens, mainly as I was worried about a lot of things. In hind sight, non of those things mattered and I think it was very silly now. I also have mental health problems, and can also see that I most likely suffered with these issues through this sort of time as well.

I think the main thing I can say is, try and talk, calmly to him and see what's getting him down. There is a large chance (depending on his age) he's over thinking a lot of different things and getting very stressed out. It's hard at certain ages where you think you know a lot of things, and yet also feel like you know nothing about many things as well.

In terms of religion, I know you are religious, [and depending on what his issues are/whether they are faith related], it might have to be communicated that if he has lost faith.....it's ok. Just because you believe doesn't mean he has too, and that you love him all the same. You of course can still pray for him if you wish, but that doesn't mean he has to follow the same rules. Maybe further down the line he'll come back to religion, but for now it might be worth just putting that out there.

Please understand that this has zero to do with religion.

I will never impose my beliefs on my children. I was atheist when he was born and was very against him going to church or learning about "Jesus". I eased up on the issue early on as his grandmother on his mother's side is "Christian". We have briefly discussed the soul or spirit, but we do not and have not spoken about any religion or even directly about GOD.

He is 16

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