For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
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12-03-2014, 07:29 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 04:17 AM)donotwant Wrote:  ...
Relativist would say that all moves are equally valid which is not true.
...

I see where you're going wrong.

Relativist would say that some moves were better relative to others assuming that your objective was to win the game.

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12-03-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 04:17 AM)donotwant Wrote:  ...
Relativist would say that all moves are equally valid which is not true.
...

I see where you're going wrong.

Relativist would say that some moves were better relative to others assuming that your objective was to win the game.

What is morality?
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12-03-2014, 07:33 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
I'm a moral absolutist, some things are always wrong and others are always right. However I am not a moral objectivist as you describe (though I am an OBJECTIVIST). What is moral for a man is not necessarily moral for a lion and what is moral for the lion isn't necessarily moral for a hamster.

Of course this brings up if morality is only applicable to sentient beings.
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12-03-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 07:33 AM)natachan Wrote:  I'm a moral absolutist, some things are always wrong and others are always right. However I am not a moral objectivist as you describe (though I am an OBJECTIVIST). What is moral for a man is not necessarily moral for a lion and what is moral for the lion isn't necessarily moral for a hamster.

Of course this brings up if morality is only applicable to sentient beings.

In a lifeless universe morality doesn't exist because there is nobody to act upon it.
In universe with one creature morality doesn't exist because creature can't impact anyone but itself.
In a universe with 2 or more creatures however morality does exist.

What do you mean always wrong?
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12-03-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 05:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ...
But the rules, goals, and desires are still subjective.

Actually, I'd say that the rules are axiomatic (rather than subjective).

... In the same way that the well-being landscape is creating an axiom (or framework) by which we can use objective metrics.

But I get your drift.

(but then I would... cos we've had this conversation countless times before).

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12-03-2014, 07:36 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2014 07:43 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?




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12-03-2014, 07:41 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 07:33 AM)natachan Wrote:  I'm a moral absolutist, some things are always wrong and others are always right. However I am not a moral objectivist as you describe (though I am an OBJECTIVIST). What is moral for a man is not necessarily moral for a lion and what is moral for the lion isn't necessarily moral for a hamster.

Of course this brings up if morality is only applicable to sentient beings.

OMG!

Even Billy Lame Craig dropped the word 'absolute' from his debates and switched to 'objective'.

To quote someone of great stature and intelligence:
(05-12-2013 12:22 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Objective =/= Absolute.


Think of it this way...

Scale of Morality / Immorality:
v----------------------------------------------=--0------------------------------------------------v
absolute evil .............. -moral ....................+ moral .................. absolute good

Only two ways of knowing what are the absolutes:
1. Divine command
2. Hindsight

This reveals the flaw in utilitarian / consequential models... we don't know the ultimate outcome of the universe (in terms of good/bad/right/wrong)

This does not mean, however, that we can't create an open-ended scale and plot stuff on it i.e. one thing is more objectively good or bad than another thing.

But we can only do this if first we make some assumptions i.e. that human well-being is valuable to the universe.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...214?page=6

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12-03-2014, 07:41 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 07:35 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 07:33 AM)natachan Wrote:  I'm a moral absolutist, some things are always wrong and others are always right. However I am not a moral objectivist as you describe (though I am an OBJECTIVIST). What is moral for a man is not necessarily moral for a lion and what is moral for the lion isn't necessarily moral for a hamster.

Of course this brings up if morality is only applicable to sentient beings.

In a lifeless universe morality doesn't exist because there is nobody to act upon it.
In universe with one creature morality doesn't exist because creature can't impact anyone but itself.
In a universe with 2 or more creatures however morality does exist.

What do you mean always wrong?

As an objectivist I would argue a universe with one sentient being there is morality since it is that beings moral imperative to work towards its own happiness. If its happiness is served by oblivion, it would be moral to end its life. Otherwise its moral duty TO ITSELF is to work to produce and extend itself.

An example of a moral absolute: it is always wrong to initiate the use of physical force against another sentient being.
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12-03-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
The problem with "objective" morality is that he way the OP is using the term means that it matters to the universe. Usually I call myself a moral objectivist but in this context it doesn't work.
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12-03-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(12-03-2014 07:41 AM)natachan Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 07:35 AM)donotwant Wrote:  In a lifeless universe morality doesn't exist because there is nobody to act upon it.
In universe with one creature morality doesn't exist because creature can't impact anyone but itself.
In a universe with 2 or more creatures however morality does exist.

What do you mean always wrong?

As an objectivist I would argue a universe with one sentient being there is morality since it is that beings moral imperative to work towards its own happiness. If its happiness is served by oblivion, it would be moral to end its life. Otherwise its moral duty TO ITSELF is to work to produce and extend itself.

An example of a moral absolute: it is always wrong to initiate the use of physical force against another sentient being.

Even if that sentient being is torturing someone?
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