For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
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11-03-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 02:30 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  How is it not objective that you and I would both like to go on living, not be tortured, not have our stuff stolen?

WE have such desires, but that doesn't matter beyond us. We feel such things because nature intended us to.



(11-03-2014 02:30 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Of course it's not metaphysical. But how is it not physical? Do you and I both want to avoid torture or murder?

Sure, but there is nothing beyond ourselves that claims that such is wrong.
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11-03-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 12:59 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Can you show me how morals acquire the ability to leap out of your brains, or of any other brain for that matter, and become an 'object'? If so, by what process does this occur?
I actually like the way you think.
I also have much problems with objective morality. There is no definitive reference so any disagreements cannot be settled, thus it is merely a believe system and only rings true for the believer so at best it can only be used as a self guide for each individual. (unless of course, a collection of people delegate the moral authority to a central person or organisation e.g. a religious organisation, but at best this only applies to that group).
My problems with subjective morality is much the same as my objections to objective morality. If a person recognises that their moral beliefs are subjective then how can they in all honesty make normative claims? How can they outwardly proclaim that such and such is wrong or immoral? (as if this proclaimation applies to others) How can they expect that other people ought to live by this one person's own subjective moral beliefs?
In my opinion, we would benefit from forgetting about the whole idea of morality or moral society (trying to control others by our own moral standards) and instead focussing on our own behaviours with regards to the real (tangible and measurable) consequences that are invoked by them.
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11-03-2014, 02:45 PM
For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
That would be Existentialism, and heavily covered in Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals after Beyond Good and Evil.

β€œIt is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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11-03-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 02:42 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 12:59 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Can you show me how morals acquire the ability to leap out of your brains, or of any other brain for that matter, and become an 'object'? If so, by what process does this occur?
I actually like the way you think.
I also have much problems with objective morality. There is no definitive reference so any disagreements cannot be settled, thus it is merely a believe system and only rings true for the believer so at best it can only be used as a self guide for each individual. (unless of course, a collection of people delegate the moral authority to a central person or organisation e.g. a religious organisation, but at best this only applies to that group).
My problems with subjective morality is much the same as my objections to objective morality. If a person recognises that their moral beliefs are subjective then how can they in all honesty make normative claims? How can they outwardly proclaim that such and such is wrong or immoral? (as if this proclaimation applies to others) How can they expect that other people ought to live by this one person's own subjective moral beliefs?
In my opinion, we would benefit from forgetting about the whole idea of morality or moral society (trying to control others by our own moral standards) and instead focussing on our own behaviours with regards to the real (tangible and measurable) consequences that are invoked by them.

Excellent post! Yes
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11-03-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
Here you go
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...r_morality
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11-03-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 02:48 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Here you go
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...r_morality

Subjective agreed upon standards are NOT proof of an objective morality.

It is more reasonable to think that morality, like aesthetic appreciation, derives from evolutionary means.
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11-03-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 02:52 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 02:48 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Here you go
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...r_morality

Subjective agreed upon standards are NOT proof of an objective morality.

Define objective.
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11-03-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
There was someone on here just a little while ago called lookingforanswers who was sort of a deist but he couldn't let go of his theist upbringing altogether, special pleading left and right because he was scared of being wrong. He actually said he felt he was a deist and his deity implanted the tools of morality into LUCA so that some day billions of years later we would have morals. Probably the world record for the most extreme special plead.

As I said to him, even if there were just some deity who set the morals for us, that would still be the deity's version of morals and ultimately it's subjective, so no, objective morality is a myth.

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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11-03-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 02:52 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 02:52 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Subjective agreed upon standards are NOT proof of an objective morality.

Define objective.

It exists outside of your brain.
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11-03-2014, 02:56 PM
RE: For those atheists that believe in objective morality, can you prove it?
(11-03-2014 02:54 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 02:52 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Define objective.

It exists outside of your brain.

Haha. Does math exist outside of my brain? Big Grin
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