For those that have debated with me...
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25-06-2012, 04:18 PM
For those that have debated with me...
I'm always looking for positive criticism and ways to better my approach and skills in debating.

A common gripe with atheists when it comes to the big boy theist debaters is that they are being "inconsistent" or "dishonest" or "using mental gymnastics" or something else like this.

Which negative traits do I use and need to lose?

Do you feel my theology is consistent and reconciled?

Am I fair in my arguments?

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25-06-2012, 04:28 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
It is my opinion of your theology, that you have to not do that much mental gymnastics, because you have a base that can't be challenged. Even though that base is one of the most monstrous ideas, that God isn't immoral regardless of what he does.


I have not debated with you, but I am a critic of your theology because it is against my moral compass not to point out the evil and want to atrribute it to it's sources which, in your opinion, is God.

The only thing I can say KC, is that, to me, your theology can't be refuted or, rather, the foundation of "God's perfect Plan" and the "God is truly sovereign".


If I could say one objection with in one sentence it would be:
Just because it can't be refuted doesn't mean it is true.

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25-06-2012, 04:55 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
You're pretty OK.

Thing is... it's like you see what we say through a metre of glass (yes I know you hate that spelling Tongue muhahaha). So you know, thing about glass, it's transparent, you'd almost feel like you could walk over to where we are, but if you try - BAM - you bump into the glass. And it works both ways - we try to see from your perspective but there's a point where it just does not compute.

Please note I am not implying that my truth is equivalent to yours. Mine is clearly superior. A. because it belongs to me and B. because I can pull out lots of literature written by clever people backing me up. Er... moving on...

I actually wrote more of a critique... but I'll save it. It's basically,your beliefs are a tower of strength, an impregnable fortress... a Christian would probably think this was a compliment Tongue
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25-06-2012, 05:34 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
I'm not sure we can critique your theology for you since you start with a premise most of don't believe: That God is real and the Bible is His word. There are all sorts of things you can argue for or against with a fellow bible believer, but the atheist is going to be stuck at square one asserting that your arguments that follow are invalid. If you've argued for the existence of God and the truth of the Bible outside of the Bible itself, I've missed it, but I don't follow your God-talk much because it's so delusional.

So, can you argue Calvinism with an atheist? Not very well, I feel.

Can you argue with other Christians and seem like your theology is Biblically sound? Yes. The only place where your Biblical arguments are open to attack is your view of the Bible being allegory when it doesn't follow science, but it's infallible in other areas. This is a pretty slippery slope to defend upon. What evidence can you provide that your allegorical assumptions aren't cherry picked? Your opponents will attack here.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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25-06-2012, 06:25 PM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2012 06:36 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: For those that have debated with me...
I see your "Christian aplologetics as quite laughable.

In the first instance you create an all powerfull god, devoid of any decency, who is intent on manufacturing creatures to suffer in the wild hopes of being part and parcel to the madman's psychotic plan.

You fail to indicate in any way what this god of yours is about, other than for his bizarre megalomaniacal behaviour.

You posit eternal damnation for those capriciously designed for such with the victims having no redress whatsoever..

Like that lunatic Paul who turned the Jesus movement on its head you seem to glory in your own bizarre view as to what Christianity is all about.

In some ways I really feel quite sorry for you.
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25-06-2012, 07:59 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

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25-06-2012, 08:09 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.
This is what makes it difficult to debate:

Atheist: The God of the Bible can't be real because how can such a being be so evil?
KC: Humans can't judge God's morals.
Atheist: Then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.
KC: Have I shown you pictures of my weapons collection?

Big Grin

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25-06-2012, 08:14 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
Whatchu want? Validation? From a bunch of peons with cameo roles in this grand staged drama Sky Daddy conducts to give purpose to his son? And you don't see the parallels, here? You gonna invite us over to tutor your kid? I'm thinking, not.

This merely perpetuates the meme of the patriarchy that feeds the power structure. People of shallow thought and short sight - i.e. most of humanity - that's all they know. Family. Don't matter what kinda hoodlum you are in the world as long as you do right by your kin. Because this is all the simple folk of simple faith can handle in terms of simulation, to follow the evolutionary dictates focusing on the recombination of dna.

Self-similarity over differing orders of magnitude. The congregation warming the pews, each of them smug in their self-righteousness self-evaluation of patriarch. Like the minister over the church. Like the bishop over the see. Like god, over all, showing junior how it is done. If it walks like a pyramid scam and quacks like a pyramid scam...

And this is the theology you seek our approval on? I don't know how you can read Romans and not see that Jesus is a spiritual paradigm. I don't know how you can read Job and not see that god demands your skepticism. You take the work of this man Calvin, this coalition NASB; you don't question it, you perpetuate it.

And your friends are here playing bit parts to give you approbation... What are you gonna get out of the deal? Are gonna be more elect? Less? The state of election is predetermined, is it not? You got the beautiful wife, the beautiful children, the beautiful dog; you got family. You got the smug sense of self righteousness because you know your congregation is gonna look to you, to this, and say to themselves, that's the patriarch that I am.

So, what's the question?


(25-06-2012 08:09 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Atheist: The God of the Bible can't be real because how can such a being be so evil?
KC: Humans can't judge God's morals.
Atheist: Then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.
KC: Have I shown you pictures of my weapons collection?

Big Grin

Gun porn. Covers a multitude of sins. Thumbsup

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25-06-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

Sorry,but I do not see King's Chosen as a rational thinker in any deep sense.

We need not remove fantasy and myth from more logical aspirations to see that K.C makes what may well be a fatal flaw; albeit by default. It is generally accepted by believers ,that God is perfectly good, moral...a decent chap/spirit.In claiming that god, by fiat, creates all manner of beings,some for ultimate eternal suffering equivocates as to the general worth of god which IMO, is the quinttessential issue,. You ,too, seem to agree with me on this issue. He is obviously rational in some areas, which i imagine is a prerequisite to surviving in any way decent.
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25-06-2012, 08:38 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
You need to stop lying to yourself. Once you do that, you can improve your debate techniques by what some would call ....rational thought.
It involves honesty to yourself and to the evidence that we observe in life. It does not involve delusions and fantasies that we wish were true.

Take one thing from your religion, one small thing that you know to be NOT true and ask yourself why it's not true.

Then take some other small thing from your religion that you know to be true and ask yourself why it is true.

If you can do this, then you will be on your way to thinking rationally and having a rational perspective can only benefit your debating techniques.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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