For those that have debated with me...
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25-06-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 04:28 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  It is my opinion of your theology, that you have to not do that much mental gymnastics, because you have a base that can't be challenged. Even though that base is one of the most monstrous ideas, that God isn't immoral regardless of what he does.


I have not debated with you, but I am a critic of your theology because it is against my moral compass not to point out the evil and want to atrribute it to it's sources which, in your opinion, is God.

The only thing I can say KC, is that, to me, your theology can't be refuted or, rather, the foundation of "God's perfect Plan" and the "God is truly sovereign".


If I could say one objection with in one sentence it would be:
Just because it can't be refuted doesn't mean it is true.
I think that the word you're looking for is "unfalsifiable."

It's a beautiful word that's often used in a sentence like so:
"An unfalsifiable claim cannot be distinguished from fantasy or illusion"

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25-06-2012, 10:21 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 09:58 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  
(25-06-2012 04:28 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  It is my opinion of your theology, that you have to not do that much mental gymnastics, because you have a base that can't be challenged. Even though that base is one of the most monstrous ideas, that God isn't immoral regardless of what he does.


I have not debated with you, but I am a critic of your theology because it is against my moral compass not to point out the evil and want to atrribute it to it's sources which, in your opinion, is God.

The only thing I can say KC, is that, to me, your theology can't be refuted or, rather, the foundation of "God's perfect Plan" and the "God is truly sovereign".


If I could say one objection with in one sentence it would be:
Just because it can't be refuted doesn't mean it is true.
I think that the word you're looking for is "unfalsifiable."

It's a beautiful word that's often used in a sentence like so:
"An unfalsifiable claim cannot be distinguished from fantasy or illusion"
Thanks!

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25-06-2012, 10:58 PM
 
RE: For those that have debated with me...
You know what? Fuck all you atheists with your pseudo-superiority in rational thinking. You're as deluded as any Christian ever was. You act like KC is irrational because he believes in God and believes that God has already determined who is going to heaven and hell, but you, yourselves, deny anything beyond the physical material realm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If there is a dualistic God, He can do anything He wants and it is good. That's a fact that is utterly indisputable. (For that matter, the same thing applies to a monistic God.).
If there is no God, then we are all just organic chemical organisms operating by chaotic chance--including participating in this discussion--that is an indisputable fact.

If there is a God as KC describes, my guess is that your ability to fear Him indicates that you are saved. If there is no such God, then who gives a rat's ass about anything--including this forum?

Any statement about God necessarily limits our conception of God. You cannot truthfully talk about God. It's impossible.

I say that God is the fundamental monistic consciousness, but that is so limiting that it's almost not worth ever bringing up. I have an intuition of God that cannot be communicated. KC has an intuition of God that cannot be communicated, and no matter how much you atheists deny it, you have a conception, too, and you freaking know it or you wouldn't be in this forum.

What you have, KC, is faith. Faith improves the soul from the perspective of what I would call the lucid spiritual plane, given that faith is how you make things happen there, so it's good to practice here. But you're not right. The good news is that it doesn't matter that you are wrong. I just have one question for you: How small do you think God is that He is encapsulated by your understanding?

Just a question.
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25-06-2012, 11:10 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  You know what? Fuck all you atheists with your pseudo-superiority in rational thinking. You're as deluded as any Christian ever was. You act like KC is irrational because he believes in God and believes that God has already determined who is going to heaven and hell, but you, yourselves, deny anything beyond the physical material realm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If there is a dualistic God, He can do anything He wants and it is good. That's a fact that is utterly indisputable. (For that matter, the same thing applies to a monistic God.).
If there is no God, then we are all just organic chemical organisms operating by chaotic chance--including participating in this discussion--that is an indisputable fact.

If there is a God as KC describes, my guess is that your ability to fear Him indicates that you are saved. If there is no such God, then who gives a rat's ass about anything--including this forum?

Any statement about God necessarily limits our conception of God. You cannot truthfully talk about God. It's impossible.

I say that God is the fundamental monistic consciousness, but that is so limiting that it's almost not worth ever bringing up. I have an intuition of God that cannot be communicated. KC has an intuition of God that cannot be communicated, and no matter how much you atheists deny it, you have a conception, too, and you freaking know it or you wouldn't be in this forum.

What you have, KC, is faith. Faith improves the soul from the perspective of what I would call the lucid spiritual plane, given that faith is how you make things happen there, so it's good to practice here. But you're not right. The good news is that it doesn't matter that you are wrong. I just have one question for you: How small do you think God is that He is encapsulated by your understanding?

Just a question.
Not sure if trolling.... Or trolling so much that he believes it himself.

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25-06-2012, 11:17 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
Just curious, you might have mentioned this elsewhere (I'm too lazy to keep up with everything that goes on here @ TTA Big Grin), but what would you say could be proof that your theology is wrong? In other words, what would be evidence that you're wrong?

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25-06-2012, 11:41 PM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2012 12:02 AM by Mr Woof.)
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  You know what? Fuck all you atheists with your pseudo-superiority in rational thinking. You're as deluded as any Christian ever was. You act like KC is irrational because he believes in God and believes that God has already determined who is going to heaven and hell, but you, yourselves, deny anything beyond the physical material realm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If there is a dualistic God, He can do anything He wants and it is good. That's a fact that is utterly indisputable. (For that matter, the same thing applies to a monistic God.).
If there is no God, then we are all just organic chemical organisms operating by chaotic chance--including participating in this discussion--that is an indisputable fact.

If there is a God as KC describes, my guess is that your ability to fear Him indicates that you are saved. If there is no such God, then who gives a rat's ass about anything--including this forum?

Any statement about God necessarily limits our conception of God. You cannot truthfully talk about God. It's impossible.

I say that God is the fundamental monistic consciousness, but that is so limiting that it's almost not worth ever bringing up. I have an intuition of God that cannot be communicated. KC has an intuition of God that cannot be communicated, and no matter how much you atheists deny it, you have a conception, too, and you freaking know it or you wouldn't be in this forum.

What you have, KC, is faith. Faith improves the soul from the perspective of what I would call the lucid spiritual plane, given that faith is how you make things happen there, so it's good to practice here. But you're not right. The good news is that it doesn't matter that you are wrong. I just have one question for you: How small do you think God is that He is encapsulated by your understanding?

Just a question.

Fuck to too Caretaker of Eternity..........Ooops my mistake...flogging the title of your new thriller with a foreward by K.C, perhaps........

Thinkers, do not deny remotely possible aspects beyond the physical realm. Intelligent people don't posit a loving supranormal god who delights in torturing his creations for Eternity as the looney radical fringe Calvinists claim. As for having faith in this sort of stuff engageing your "lucid spiritual plane", you and your mentor K.C. deserve one another.How do you come up with an all powerfull creature having the rights to act abominally? It is patently absurd to claim that a dualistic god is not subject to moral requirements ,simply because "god' is said to epitomise all things good and worthy. Why not just say a vile force motivates the Cosmos, if this is what you believe, and stop trying to justify it with no grounds whatsoever?

As for scientific testing and logic most scientists do not claim it to be a panacea: rather, a work in progress. and as such it belong in a domain far removed from the nebulous sophistry of your wild and unsubstantated dreams.And another thing, in order for your lucid" spiritual plane" to be lucid, how do you justify lucidity, without resorting to your fancifull, bizarre and egocentric pipe dreams.

As for your god question..........conversely how, big might this speculative being be, that he could not be bigger, or certainly in Calvinist terminology, have some degree of compassion?
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26-06-2012, 12:00 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 08:09 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.
This is what makes it difficult to debate:

Atheist: The God of the Bible can't be real because how can such a being be so evil?
KC: Humans can't judge God's morals.
Atheist: Then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.
KC: Have I shown you pictures of my weapons collection?

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26-06-2012, 05:14 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  Any statement about God necessarily limits our conception of God. You cannot truthfully talk about God. It's impossible.

Blink

So... how 'bout we talk about Gwynnies? Heart

The monistic unit of fundamental consciousness is baseline; if it is in all things, there is no need to mention it. It is like prefacing every sentence with "I am now speaking in English." Are we gonna have sect because I call it my Gwynnies and you call it your god?

And KC goes into full metal puppy dog once a month, it seems. Coming around, wagging his tail, looking for approval. Can't expect he's not gonna get shit for it, but I see it as a sign of his love - like my Gwynnies - and I sure expect to take flack for going on about Gwyneth alla time. At the same time, everything is about her in the sense that I wake up every morning going, I love my Gwynnies!

Well, some mornings are fluffier than others. Chillax. Thumbsup

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26-06-2012, 05:36 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  If there is no God, then we are all just organic chemical organisms operating by chaotic chance--including participating in this discussion--that is an indisputable fact.
I see that you are finally getting in touch with reality. Just take off the "If" and you have it.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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26-06-2012, 05:54 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  You know what? Fuck all you atheists with your pseudo-superiority in rational thinking. You're as deluded as any Christian ever was. You act like KC is irrational because he believes in God and believes that God has already determined who is going to heaven and hell, but you, yourselves, deny anything beyond the physical material realm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
It's only when "without good reason" gets involved that there is a break from rationality. If there is a good reason, well I want to know about it. I wouldn't call myself an atheist if I hadn't thought and searched long and hard to find a reason to believe anything beyond what is apparently there. If I'm mistaken I want to know.

(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  If there is a dualistic God, He can do anything He wants and it is good. That's a fact that is utterly indisputable. (For that matter, the same thing applies to a monistic God.).
If there is no God, then we are all just organic chemical organisms operating by chaotic chance--including participating in this discussion--that is an indisputable fact.
If there is a dualistic God and Satan we sit between God and Satan. We're a third party to the transaction. If there is a monistic God then we are the Satan. In any case with all due respect to whatever role one may or may not have in the creation process, any claim that the God character has an automatic right to judge us in any absolute moral or ethical sense is false. We can sit in judgement over both God and Satan if we see fit to do so. A parent may nurture a child, but at some point the child will look at their parent and judge them for what they are. Nothing about a God claim makes that dynamic any different. We might look at God and judge that yes it is perfect. We might look at God and judge that no it is not perfect. We have the right to judge. We may not have the power to enforce our judgements or to ascribe penalties for imperfection, but we have the right to judge. We can judge an imperfect or evil God. If that God has any good in it, it will do no worse than treat us as a father would a child and explain why things are as they are instead of how we would like them to be.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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