For those that have debated with me...
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26-06-2012, 06:07 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 04:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm always looking for positive criticism and ways to better my approach and skills in debating.

I would suggest you hit Kierkegaard more. His rejection of organized religion and the leap of faith argument is interesting.
Not that I agree with him, I think he was insane, but his drive to find truth was impressive. I believe in the end all Kierkegaard found was madness.
It's all about the process of rationalizing beliefs as facts. The leap of faith is an absurd position and Kierkegaard admitted as such, but proposed this as the only way. All other arguments for god were pointless.

"The problem we got here is a failure to communicate".
As atheists are focused on rational arguments for reality, any religious position is not compatible. Belief in a god is not rational, so it is rejected. When you start with the assumed fact that "god is real" the smart atheist walks away. There is no reason to have a conversation at that point other than to ask the question of how you came to that conclusion. The only answer is "leap of faith". Then all the atheists will say is that a "leap of faith" is irrational.

You cannot win over the atheist with irrational arguments. So let me ask you some questions back. Why do you attempt the seemingly impossible? Do you believe that god has commanded you to engage atheists and set them back on the right track? Have you been successful? How many conversions to Christianity can you claim? Have you convinced anyone that your conversion from atheism is true? You don't have to answer to me or anyone else on this forum. These are questions for you to answer to yourself.
I hope you find what you're looking for.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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26-06-2012, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2012 10:33 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: For those that have debated with me...
We haven't debated much, but that's primarily due to my dislike of sitting around talking about nothing, but I've jabbed you from time to time and we have talked about quite a few discussions.

The largest flaw I can see in your debating is actually a strength. You are constantly studying and learning and seeing what things make the most sense to you. You are very open to accepting arguments from the opponent. BUT, you believe that everything has been predetermined and that what happens to you in the end is inevitable. You are too open to intellectual thought and searching for the truth to truly accept that everything is predetermined. You make a lot of good arguments and have made a highly rational argument in many parts of your discussion, but none of that builds credibility to your personal beliefs. You hurt your own view of theology by all of your admissions and the debates you get into. Don't stop allowing alternate views to help you learn, but really look at the way that you learn and the predeterministic philosophy you have and give me a serious answer as to how these can logically be congruent. Don't give me the bullshit dualism argument because contradictions are the basis of determining how logical a view is.

You're great at debating things and have a lot of good views, but you're not generally defending your own views. Most of the arguments I've heard from you betray plenty of your own views which can be ok, but aren't you here suggesting you have truth? I know that you have no concern of winning souls, but your general arguments within this forum suggest that you don't care to be right. You have a lot of logic on you side, but you also allow a multitude of contradictions.

I realize that sometimes I disappear from arguments, for me this is not the most important activity, if we were in person I wouln't run away, but religion is not my interest and often I don't remember to look back to a discussion I had days ago. If you do want to discuss things with me though and I ever kind of disappear from the argument just send me a message. If you really want my answer beyond what I type on my own I'll give it. Hope something in this helps, and if you really think I have a lot to contribute just let me know.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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26-06-2012, 10:36 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 04:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm always looking for positive criticism and ways to better my approach and skills in debating.

A common gripe with atheists when it comes to the big boy theist debaters is that they are being "inconsistent" or "dishonest" or "using mental gymnastics" or something else like this.

Which negative traits do I use and need to lose?

Do you feel my theology is consistent and reconciled?

Am I fair in my arguments?

I think you're fair, but like others said- if we're starting from a theological position and assuming that there is a god and that god is your God. But like Thomas said- that's a leap of faith that seems unnecessary and not rational.

When it comes to your position on God, I think you've got to base that on some major assumptions that I'm not willing to allow without some good solid reasoning. But you are consistent in it.

I will say that what I've read of your debates (I haven't read all of them) you've been steadfast, calm, and mostly held back the snark I'm sure you felt like responding with many times.

You ARE a rational thinker, but with your own cognitive dissonance when it comes to the starting point of belief in the existence of a god or any gods and then furthered by faith that the god that you believe in is who you believe "Him" to be. Getting past those two major hurdles, I think that you are an otherwise consistently rational thinker.
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26-06-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  You know what? Fuck all you atheists with your pseudo-superiority in rational thinking. You're as deluded as any Christian ever was. You act like KC is irrational because he believes in God and believes that God has already determined who is going to heaven and hell, but you, yourselves, deny anything beyond the physical material realm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

I just have one question for you: How small do you think God is that He is encapsulated by your understanding?

anything beyond the physical realm is no different then claiming something beyond the physical realm. Yeah, a couple people here think they have all the answers, but I'd argue that most are open to other ideas. Problem is, we're operating with sight, sound, touch, smell, taste. Trying to claim, prove, or deny anything outside our five senses is pretty much pointless. I'm not denying anything.

Why am I an atheist? Because I don't believe there is a God. Why don't I believe this? Because nothing within my five senses tells me otherwise. That's all I've got to work with. I won't deny the possibility of a God because that's just as ridiculous as claiming there is one. To be fair, I don't deny the possibility of anything. Don't expect special treatment because you think you're promoting the creator of the universe. KC, when you come around claiming a God, you'll get the same treatment from me as someone claiming time travel, dragons, wormholes to other dimensions, invisible matter and energy, ghosts, and whatever else we humans can imagine.

>I just have one question for you: How small do you think God is that He is encapsulated by your understanding?

Well put.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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26-06-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 04:28 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  It is my opinion of your theology, that you have to not do that much mental gymnastics, because you have a base that can't be challenged. Even though that base is one of the most monstrous ideas, that God isn't immoral regardless of what he does.

I have not debated with you, but I am a critic of your theology because it is against my moral compass not to point out the evil and want to atrribute it to it's sources which, in your opinion, is God.

The only thing I can say KC, is that, to me, your theology can't be refuted or, rather, the foundation of "God's perfect Plan" and the "God is truly sovereign".

If I could say one objection with in one sentence it would be:
Just because it can't be refuted doesn't mean it is true.

Well said.

And, I think I addressed most of this in the other thread.

Thank you for the response.

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26-06-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 04:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  You're pretty OK.

Thing is... it's like you see what we say through a metre of glass (yes I know you hate that spelling Tongue muhahaha). So you know, thing about glass, it's transparent, you'd almost feel like you could walk over to where we are, but if you try - BAM - you bump into the glass. And it works both ways - we try to see from your perspective but there's a point where it just does not compute.

Please note I am not implying that my truth is equivalent to yours. Mine is clearly superior. A. because it belongs to me and B. because I can pull out lots of literature written by clever people backing me up. Er... moving on...

I actually wrote more of a critique... but I'll save it. It's basically,your beliefs are a tower of strength, an impregnable fortress... a Christian would probably think this was a compliment Tongue

I get what you're saying here.

As I've said before, I do share a lot in common with atheists... logic... their point of views... etc; however, there is that ONE thing that keeps us separate.

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26-06-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 05:34 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I'm not sure we can critique your theology for you since you start with a premise most of don't believe: That God is real and the Bible is His word. There are all sorts of things you can argue for or against with a fellow bible believer, but the atheist is going to be stuck at square one asserting that your arguments that follow are invalid. If you've argued for the existence of God and the truth of the Bible outside of the Bible itself, I've missed it, but I don't follow your God-talk much because it's so delusional.

So, can you argue Calvinism with an atheist? Not very well, I feel.

Can you argue with other Christians and seem like your theology is Biblically sound? Yes. The only place where your Biblical arguments are open to attack is your view of the Bible being allegory when it doesn't follow science, but it's infallible in other areas. This is a pretty slippery slope to defend upon. What evidence can you provide that your allegorical assumptions aren't cherry picked? Your opponents will attack here.

I agree with you. I addressed the fact that the atheist and theist arguments are incompatible in another thread.

As for the theology part... yeah, I see what you're saying; however, I do back it up with historical writings and culture of the times. Not as slippery, but still slippery nonetheless.

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26-06-2012, 01:44 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 06:25 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I see your "Christian aplologetics as quite laughable.

In the first instance you create an all powerfull god, devoid of any decency, who is intent on manufacturing creatures to suffer in the wild hopes of being part and parcel to the madman's psychotic plan.

You fail to indicate in any way what this god of yours is about, other than for his bizarre megalomaniacal behaviour.

Actually a large part of what I've said is that I don't know God's plan and His will.

Quote:You posit eternal damnation for those capriciously designed for such with the victims having no redress whatsoever..

Like that lunatic Paul who turned the Jesus movement on its head you seem to glory in your own bizarre view as to what Christianity is all about.

In some ways I really feel quite sorry for you.

To each his own, I suppose.

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26-06-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

Sorry,but I do not see King's Chosen as a rational thinker in any deep sense.

We need not remove fantasy and myth from more logical aspirations to see that K.C makes what may well be a fatal flaw; albeit by default. It is generally accepted by believers ,that God is perfectly good, moral...a decent chap/spirit.In claiming that god, by fiat, creates all manner of beings,some for ultimate eternal suffering equivocates as to the general worth of god which IMO, is the quinttessential issue,. You ,too, seem to agree with me on this issue. He is obviously rational in some areas, which i imagine is a prerequisite to surviving in any way decent.
Even those of us who like to think of ourselves as "rational" aren't that way always; it's a struggle. But I characterize KC as rational because I think he is more often than not.

I know it's hard to give believers in God (especially believers in a loving God) credit for being rational -- as hard as it would be to give an alchemist that title, for instance. But we did it for Isaac Newton. Sometimes rational people hold irrational beliefs.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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26-06-2012, 04:40 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
^^^What Starcrash said.

Another thought: I used to be highly skilled at rationalizing my Christian beliefs. Therefore, KC must be very rational. Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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