For those that have debated with me...
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26-06-2012, 04:46 PM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(26-06-2012 01:40 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  As I've said before, I do share a lot in common with atheists... logic... their point of views... etc; however, there is that ONE thing that keeps us separate.

Sanity? Good looks? Lack of body odor? Big Grin

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27-06-2012, 06:46 AM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2012 02:16 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: For those that have debated with me...
Hi KC...good on you for be willing to cop some criticism. Here's some more, seeing you asked for it.

People like your good self know FUCK ALL about the origins of your beliefs.
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27-06-2012, 08:31 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

Same for you.

Quote:I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

I am actually quite skeptical. I've admitted that my belief makes no logical sense; however, I can't deny it: based on my experience.

Quote:The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

That's under the assumption that humanity is as important as Christ. It isn't. Humanity happened because of Christ; therefore, we don't hold as much significance as we think we do. That being said, if God granted full justice then none of us would stand a chance; however, since He also grants grace, He chose to save some of us.

If He just stopped the damned from being born, then there would be no distinction from elect and non-elect and no consequences: which means, that salvation is pointless ergo Christ is pointless.

God created Hell because there needed to be a place for the damned. There needed to be the damned because of Christ's purpose.

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27-06-2012, 08:34 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 08:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Whatchu want? Validation? From a bunch of peons with cameo roles in this grand staged drama Sky Daddy conducts to give purpose to his son? And you don't see the parallels, here? You gonna invite us over to tutor your kid? I'm thinking, not.

This merely perpetuates the meme of the patriarchy that feeds the power structure. People of shallow thought and short sight - i.e. most of humanity - that's all they know. Family. Don't matter what kinda hoodlum you are in the world as long as you do right by your kin. Because this is all the simple folk of simple faith can handle in terms of simulation, to follow the evolutionary dictates focusing on the recombination of dna.

Self-similarity over differing orders of magnitude. The congregation warming the pews, each of them smug in their self-righteousness self-evaluation of patriarch. Like the minister over the church. Like the bishop over the see. Like god, over all, showing junior how it is done. If it walks like a pyramid scam and quacks like a pyramid scam...

And this is the theology you seek our approval on? I don't know how you can read Romans and not see that Jesus is a spiritual paradigm. I don't know how you can read Job and not see that god demands your skepticism. You take the work of this man Calvin, this coalition NASB; you don't question it, you perpetuate it.

And your friends are here playing bit parts to give you approbation... What are you gonna get out of the deal? Are gonna be more elect? Less? The state of election is predetermined, is it not? You got the beautiful wife, the beautiful children, the beautiful dog; you got family. You got the smug sense of self righteousness because you know your congregation is gonna look to you, to this, and say to themselves, that's the patriarch that I am.

So, what's the question?


(25-06-2012 08:09 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Atheist: The God of the Bible can't be real because how can such a being be so evil?
KC: Humans can't judge God's morals.
Atheist: Then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.
KC: Have I shown you pictures of my weapons collection?

Big Grin

Gun porn. Covers a multitude of sins. Thumbsup

I'm not seeking validation.

I'm seeking a way to better myself.

Just because all of you don't believe the same as me, doesn't mean I can't glean advice and betterment from you.

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27-06-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I see you as a rational thinker, Kingschosen. I like reading your stuff, even when I disagree with it.

I wish you would apply skepticism to your religious beliefs, but as a member of a church, I understand that becoming atheist would probably be a loss overall (there's no atheist heaven that we're trying to get you into!) and besides, your kind of Christianity doesn't promote scientific stupidity (like YEC) or moral fundamentalism (like homophobia). So what do we gain by convincing you?

The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

Sorry,but I do not see King's Chosen as a rational thinker in any deep sense.

We need not remove fantasy and myth from more logical aspirations to see that K.C makes what may well be a fatal flaw; albeit by default. It is generally accepted by believers ,that God is perfectly good, moral...a decent chap/spirit.In claiming that god, by fiat, creates all manner of beings,some for ultimate eternal suffering equivocates as to the general worth of god which IMO, is the quinttessential issue,. You ,too, seem to agree with me on this issue. He is obviously rational in some areas, which i imagine is a prerequisite to surviving in any way decent.

You are right in saying that Christians have to accept that God is perfect. If not, then why worship Him?

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27-06-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(27-06-2012 08:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Humanity happened because of Christ...
If He just stopped the damned from being born, then there would be no distinction from elect and non-elect and no consequences...

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27-06-2012, 08:38 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 08:38 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You need to stop lying to yourself. Once you do that, you can improve your debate techniques by what some would call ....rational thought.
It involves honesty to yourself and to the evidence that we observe in life. It does not involve delusions and fantasies that we wish were true.

Take one thing from your religion, one small thing that you know to be NOT true and ask yourself why it's not true.

Then take some other small thing from your religion that you know to be true and ask yourself why it is true.

If you can do this, then you will be on your way to thinking rationally and having a rational perspective can only benefit your debating techniques.

I do this.

But when I do this, I find validation in other ways and and in other interpretations.

Believe me... when it came to Genesis... man... almost made me completely skeptical. That was, until I came to understand Evolutionary Creationism.

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27-06-2012, 08:40 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(27-06-2012 08:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm not seeking validation.

I'm seeking a way to better myself.

Just because all of you don't believe the same as me, doesn't mean I can't glean advice and betterment from you.

That post was me simulating mind of another in mind - walking in another's shoes, if you will - brought about by other members objections to "god's plan." In that light, I saw they had a point. But you know I luf you. Wink

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27-06-2012, 08:42 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
(25-06-2012 10:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  You know what? Fuck all you atheists with your pseudo-superiority in rational thinking. You're as deluded as any Christian ever was. You act like KC is irrational because he believes in God and believes that God has already determined who is going to heaven and hell, but you, yourselves, deny anything beyond the physical material realm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If there is a dualistic God, He can do anything He wants and it is good. That's a fact that is utterly indisputable. (For that matter, the same thing applies to a monistic God.).
If there is no God, then we are all just organic chemical organisms operating by chaotic chance--including participating in this discussion--that is an indisputable fact.

If there is a God as KC describes, my guess is that your ability to fear Him indicates that you are saved. If there is no such God, then who gives a rat's ass about anything--including this forum?

Any statement about God necessarily limits our conception of God. You cannot truthfully talk about God. It's impossible.

I say that God is the fundamental monistic consciousness, but that is so limiting that it's almost not worth ever bringing up. I have an intuition of God that cannot be communicated. KC has an intuition of God that cannot be communicated, and no matter how much you atheists deny it, you have a conception, too, and you freaking know it or you wouldn't be in this forum.

What you have, KC, is faith. Faith improves the soul from the perspective of what I would call the lucid spiritual plane, given that faith is how you make things happen there, so it's good to practice here. But you're not right. The good news is that it doesn't matter that you are wrong. I just have one question for you: How small do you think God is that He is encapsulated by your understanding?

Just a question.

Well said Egor... a bit harsh... but well said.

As for your question:

I've never claimed to be right. I've only claimed to understand what I understand.

It is up to God to reveal Himself to me. I can only understand what He chooses for me to understand.

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27-06-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: For those that have debated with me...
Quote:I am actually quite skeptical. I've admitted that my belief makes no logical sense; however, I can't deny it: based on my experience.
Finally! Bowing I can live with that.

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