For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
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10-03-2014, 12:02 AM
For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
Do you also reject the existence of Socrates and Archimedes?

My point is simply that there is indeed a set of consistent standards and methods in determining the historicity of any given figure in antiquity.

There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Archimedes. His existence hangs entirely on textual evidence, just like Jesus. This is the case for most figures in antiquity. Even then the references given on Archimedes, primarily Livy and Polybius, only give scant mentions written some 75 years after his death at the earliest. Most of it comes over 150 years later. That is quite typical of this field. Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

If the existence of Jesus is to be called into question, then we must apply the same standards across the board. No?
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10-03-2014, 12:09 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:02 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Do you also reject the existence of Socrates and Archimedes?

My point is simply that there is indeed a set of consistent standards and methods in determining the historicity of any given figure in antiquity.

There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Archimedes. His existence hangs entirely on textual evidence, just like Jesus. This is the case for most figures in antiquity. Even then the references given on Archimedes, primarily Livy and Polybius, only give scant mentions written some 75 years after his death at the earliest. Most of it comes over 150 years later. That is quite typical of this field. Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

If the existence of Jesus is to be called into question, then we must apply the same standards across the board. No?

Oh, look -- the troll is back at it again. When you are getting your head handed to you in one thread, by all means start another line of shit.

Socrates' and Archimedes' life stories are a hell of a lot more plausible than your fairy tale godboy.

And no, you can't use your fairy tale book to as evidence of the claims in your fairy tale book. This has been done to death in this forum. Why don't you search threads before spouting bullshit that has been answered a thousand times before here.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 12:09 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 12:21 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:02 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Do you also reject the existence of Socrates and Archimedes?

My point is simply that there is indeed a set of consistent standards and methods in determining the historicity of any given figure in antiquity.

There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Archimedes. His existence hangs entirely on textual evidence, just like Jesus. This is the case for most figures in antiquity. Even then the references given on Archimedes, primarily Livy and Polybius, only give scant mentions written some 75 years after his death at the earliest. Most of it comes over 150 years later. That is quite typical of this field. Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

If the existence of Jesus is to be called into question, then we must apply the same standards across the board. No?

I'll go first. Big breath.

I guess we owe it to each new theist here to explain things.

Let's start with a question. Who do YOU think wrote the gospels (which you think give this good evidence for Jesus,) when and why? Answer this, and we have something to talk about.
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10-03-2014, 12:13 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Socrates' and Archimedes' life stories are a hell of a lot more plausible...

That is irrelevant. A plausible story can still be completely fabricated.



(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And no, you can't use your fairy tale book to as evidence of the claims in your fairy tale book. This has been done to death in this forum. Why don't you search threads before spouting bullshit that has been answered a thousand times before here.

Then why can you use references written so long after Archimedes' supposed death in order to legitimize his existence?
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10-03-2014, 12:15 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:02 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Do you also reject the existence of Socrates and Archimedes?

My point is simply that there is indeed a set of consistent standards and methods in determining the historicity of any given figure in antiquity.

There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Archimedes. His existence hangs entirely on textual evidence, just like Jesus. This is the case for most figures in antiquity. Even then the references given on Archimedes, primarily Livy and Polybius, only give scant mentions written some 75 years after his death at the earliest. Most of it comes over 150 years later. That is quite typical of this field. Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

If the existence of Jesus is to be called into question, then we must apply the same standards across the board. No?

I'll go first. Big breath.

I guess we owe it to each new theist here to explain things.

Let's start with a question. Who do YOU think wrote the gospels (you think give this good evidence for Jesus,) when and why? Answer this, and we have something to talk about.

How is this relevant?
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10-03-2014, 12:20 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:13 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Socrates' and Archimedes' life stories are a hell of a lot more plausible...

That is irrelevant. A plausible story can still be completely fabricated.

Nothing magical about Archimedes' or Socrates' lives. I don't care if they actually existed or not. Let's say they don't exist. That doesn't mean your Jeebus did.


Quote:
(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And no, you can't use your fairy tale book to as evidence of the claims in your fairy tale book. This has been done to death in this forum. Why don't you search threads before spouting bullshit that has been answered a thousand times before here.

Then why can you use references written so long after Archimedes' supposed death in order to legitimize his existence?

I didn't say anything at all about "legitimizing Archimedes' existence". Strawman much, troll?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 12:23 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:15 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll go first. Big breath.

I guess we owe it to each new theist here to explain things.

Let's start with a question. Who do YOU think wrote the gospels (you think give this good evidence for Jesus,) when and why? Answer this, and we have something to talk about.

How is this relevant?

You have called the gospels "evidence." I want to know why.
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10-03-2014, 12:24 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:20 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Nothing magical about Archimedes' or Socrates' lives. I don't care if they actually existed or not. Let's say they don't exist. That doesn't mean your Jeebus did.

Indeed.

Except many believe Archimedes and Socrates did exist, even though the evidence for such is no greater than the evidence for Jesus.


(10-03-2014 12:09 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I didn't say anything at all about "legitimizing Archimedes' existence". Strawman much, troll?

Not you in particular then, but all the people that do so.
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10-03-2014, 12:26 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:15 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  How is this relevant?

You have called the gospels "evidence." I want to know why.

In the sense that they're no greater than the evidence for either Archimedes or Socrates.
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10-03-2014, 12:28 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
Actually I do question historicity of Socrates. Archimedes on the other hand I can say nothing about. I'm only aware of his contribution to science. But the idea has been raised and I will research it. I also question whether or not Jesus existed. But who knows? Maybe he did. Could be there was a guy hanging around in Ancient Greece named Hercules but I doubt he was the son of a god...
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