For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
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10-03-2014, 01:12 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:05 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:01 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So what? I happen to agree. Let's discuss the "evidence " for Jesus. I'll repeat my question. Who do YOU think wrote the "evidence" for Jesus, when and why? Surely, as a believing Christian, you must comment on this!

I am not Christian.

My apologies to you. Glad to hear it!

Um....what's your point?
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10-03-2014, 01:13 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:11 AM)englishrose Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:57 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  My point is purely in regards to his existence, and not his claimed abilities.

But you are the one making the comparison with Socrates and Archimedes.
Again, so he existed and they didn't. So what? Is that a reason to hang a whole religion on? To worship him as the son of god?
I don't really see the point you're trying to make.
Sorry.

My point is about historical consistency.
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10-03-2014, 01:13 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:11 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  My suspicion is that someone called Jesus did exist. I don't for one moment think that he was anything other than a human being. He probably had some royal heritage that was no longer recognised because of Roman occupation, wandered off and discovered Buddhism. He then brought back it back to his homeland and amended it so that it fitted in with the existing religion. This gave rise to Christianity.

There is no reason to take it any further and start believing in miracles or that the Bible is a word of a god. It is a historical document written about a philosophy that was already in existence.

You don't have to 'reject the existence of Jesus'. But nor should you have to care either, in the same way that I don't concern myself with whether Archimedes and Socrates existed. At least with some of the Greek philosophers and mathematicians it is interesting to know about in terms of learning the history of a scientific investigation.

This thread has little to do with atheism.

Some think he ran away
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Bal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D...sus_Christ
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10-03-2014, 01:14 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:07 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:04 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  The existence of this supposed person is inextricably bound to the abilities claimed. Without them, such existence is meaningless.

The religion of Christianity would be meaningless, yes. But his existence, and his impact on our culture, is not.

His *supposed* existence. The impact is ALL predicated on belief in his supposed magic powers. As a testament to the horrors that humankind can inflict on each other in the name of superstitious fairy tales.


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(10-03-2014 01:04 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Yeah. Doesn't mean anything.

It means I was asking you a question.

It means you were strawmanning me under the guise of a question.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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10-03-2014, 01:18 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:14 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  His *supposed* existence. The impact is ALL predicated on belief in his supposed magic powers. As a testament to the horrors that humankind can inflict on each other in the name of superstitious fairy tales.

True, the powers are clearly of importance to the religion and its evolution throughout history.

But I would personally find it interesting to know the real man. I believe Richard Dawkins said if he could talk to any historical person ever, it would be Jesus (if he existed at all), to figure out who he truly was.



(10-03-2014 01:14 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  It means you were strawmanning me under the guise of a question.

Or seeking clarification.
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10-03-2014, 01:22 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 01:26 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:02 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Do you also reject the existence of Socrates and Archimedes?

My point is simply that there is indeed a set of consistent standards and methods in determining the historicity of any given figure in antiquity.

There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Archimedes. His existence hangs entirely on textual evidence, just like Jesus. This is the case for most figures in antiquity. Even then the references given on Archimedes, primarily Livy and Polybius, only give scant mentions written some 75 years after his death at the earliest. Most of it comes over 150 years later. That is quite typical of this field. Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

If the existence of Jesus is to be called into question, then we must apply the same standards across the board. No?

I can still enjoy the philosophy and stories attached to Socrates or Archimedes without them actually existing. The teaching attributed to either do not rely on divine revelation for their strength, unlike Jesus. My world view is not undermined if the historicity of either of those Greeks is weak or nonexistent; the same cannot be said for Jesus as it relates to the vast majority of Christians.

So sure, Socrates and Archimedes are quite possible mythic; and most of what Christians think they know about Jesus most assuredly is mythic.

"Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion."

Bull-motherfucking-shit, just look at Julius Caesar. We have statues and memorials of Caesar, we have coinage with his profile stamped on them. He is mentioned widely throughout history, both by his allies, his enemies, and by neutral observers; and all within his own lifetime by multiple corroborative eyewitness accounts. We have books written by Caesar himself, his 'The Civil War' and 'The Gallic Wars' are considered classics of Latin literature. History is contingent upon there being a real Caesar that really crossed the Rubicon and really defeated Pompey in the Civil War and really was made de facto leader for life and really did pave the way for his adopted son Augustus to become Emperor and start the Roman Empire. All that is required to explain Christianity is a belief in the resurrection of Jesus, he didn't actually have to exist to explain anything. A world in which Jesus was nothing more than a myth would be identical to the one we live in right now.

Even the earliest writing outside of the Gospels about Jesus only remark on what Christians believed in, it is in no way any attestation that he actually existed; only that the followers of his religious sect believed he had.

Try reading Proving History by PhD Richard Carrier, and you'll see how objectively the evidence for the existence of Jesus is worse than the evidence of actual witchcraft for the Salem Witch Trails in colonial Massachusetts between 1962 and 1963.

Seriously, enough with this weak-sauce equivocation. Dodgy

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10-03-2014, 01:24 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 01:28 AM by Charis.)
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
I guess what contributed to suspicions in this thread is that your line of questioning sounded more like a challenge than like a person "searching for the historical Jesus." I would recommend rephrasing or changing up your approach just a tad to appropriately reflect your stated objective.
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10-03-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:18 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:14 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  His *supposed* existence. The impact is ALL predicated on belief in his supposed magic powers. As a testament to the horrors that humankind can inflict on each other in the name of superstitious fairy tales.

True, the powers are clearly of importance to the religion and its evolution throughout history.

But I would personally find it interesting to know the real man. I believe Richard Dawkins said if he could talk to any historical person ever, it would be Jesus (if he existed at all), to figure out who he truly was.

Irrelevant to your assertions in this thread.


Quote:
(10-03-2014 01:14 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  It means you were strawmanning me under the guise of a question.

Or seeking clarification.

Yeah, right. Like I said: Did I say that?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 01:27 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:13 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:11 AM)englishrose Wrote:  But you are the one making the comparison with Socrates and Archimedes.
Again, so he existed and they didn't. So what? Is that a reason to hang a whole religion on? To worship him as the son of god?
I don't really see the point you're trying to make.
Sorry.

My point is about historical consistency.

Your point is rather pointless.
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10-03-2014, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 01:33 AM by Charis.)
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
Also, you state this:
Quote:Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

This does sound like a statement that might come from the School of Biblical Evangelism by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Along with stating the time gaps between the lives of certain other specific personalities and the texts written about them.... very very familiar....What chapter was that?.... But what is YOUR source for this statement?

(to be fair, she did say "almost" anyone of this era... so there is that)
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