For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
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10-03-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
I know what Jesus you are talking about:

born of a virgin
the son of a spirit being
put some mojo on water and turned it into wine
healed the sick
cast out demons
brought the dead to life
conjured up quite a bit of food from a loaf or two of bread and a fish OR two to feed a lot of people
walked on water
rose from the dead

ALL MYTH AND UNPROVABLE. There is no way to prove this Jesus existed--ridiculous.

You can claim that Archimedes and Socrates are themselves myth. But the ideas attributed to them are real and ancient--not myth.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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10-03-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:05 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:01 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So what? I happen to agree. Let's discuss the "evidence " for Jesus. I'll repeat my question. Who do YOU think wrote the "evidence" for Jesus, when and why? Surely, as a believing Christian, you must comment on this!

I am not Christian.

shimmy,
You claim not to be a Christian. Do you mean that you reject Jesus as the son of God? Do you reject him as your Lord and personal savior?

Doc
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10-03-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:11 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  I am interested in history, and historical consistency.

But there isn't a lot of "historical consistency" in the bible.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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10-03-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:11 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  I am interested in history, and historical consistency.

But there isn't a lot of "historical consistency" in the bible.

Yeah, when was Jesus born again? During the reign of Herod the Great or 10 years after his death during the Governorship of Procurator Quirinius in Syria? Weeping

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10-03-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 01:11 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 01:09 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  If that were the case, then why are you pushing this tired and hackneyed xtard-apologetics line of shit.

I am interested in history, and historical consistency.

It's clear that you are lying.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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10-03-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
If you have an hour and would like to review a long video that I personally find fascinating, give it a go.
David Fitzgerald gives a nice talk on the evidence for a historical jesus or lack there of.




Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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10-03-2014, 11:20 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 10:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But there isn't a lot of "historical consistency" in the bible.

Yeah, when was Jesus born again? During the reign of Herod the Great or 10 years after his death during the Governorship of Procurator Quirinius in Syria? Weeping

That is one of problems isn't it? Also the whole going to the place of birth to be taxed. We know that's simply not the case from other writings of the time (not in the bible).

Just like the whole death of first born and fleeing to Egypt. This is one of those events that probably didn't happen. And finally we need to remember the gospels were written long after jesus' death. If you want to bolster a tall tale, and make it believable saying that Herod believed it so much that he ordered all male children under the age of two killed...might be a way to go. It is possible since Josephus wrote about Herod killing his own sons because he was afraid they'd overthrow him that they lifted those details to embellish the story and not to mention the old testament stories about Moses...Which another story that can't be proven by any stretch of the imagination.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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10-03-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
(10-03-2014 12:02 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Do you also reject the existence of Socrates and Archimedes?

My point is simply that there is indeed a set of consistent standards and methods in determining the historicity of any given figure in antiquity.

There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Archimedes. His existence hangs entirely on textual evidence, just like Jesus. This is the case for most figures in antiquity. Even then the references given on Archimedes, primarily Livy and Polybius, only give scant mentions written some 75 years after his death at the earliest. Most of it comes over 150 years later. That is quite typical of this field. Jesus has more textual evidence than almost anyone of this era written 25-75 years after the crucifixion.

If the existence of Jesus is to be called into question, then we must apply the same standards across the board. No?
I don't assume any of the three exist. But what's the point even if they are all myths?

With Archimedes, we got a lot of very useful math. Even if he didn't exist, someone came up with the math so, in a sense, he had to have existed even if his name was something besides Archimedes. The same is true for Socrates, but with philosophy instead of math.

Now how about Jesus? We could say the same to a point. Lots of good principles to live by that someone (or someones) came up with, right? Well, that's far from all that we got with Jesus though. Great math and philosophy was all we got from Archimedes and Socrates. But with Jesus, we got wars, torture, pedophilia, condemnation of perfectly good and moral beings because they happen to be attracted to the same sex, political interference, and a host of other undesirables and even atrocities.

You're wanting to compare apples with oranges, but it doesn't work. Drinking Beverage

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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10-03-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
I don't know if Socrates or Archimedes existed... But its besides the point, somebody wrote down the words attributed to them, so whether or not they actually existed is irrelevant.

You might think that also applies to Jesus, but Socrates and Archimedes never claimed to be God, or demanded that people agree with them or threaten eternal damnation in hell for questioning them. Quite the opposite.

Since there is no evidence Jesus actually existed, I'm not prepared to dedicate my life to someone who may be completely and totally mythological. Because that is what all religions require... sacrifice of all critical thinking and the acceptance of rigid dogma.

This is where religion and philosophy are directly opposed... Philosophy actively encourages debate and discussion. The very foundation of everything Socrates stood for (assuming he did exist) was based on questioning and debate.

Don't bother comparing religion with philosophy... It'll get you nowhere.

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10-03-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: For those who reject the existence of Jesus...
You know,for someone claiming to be non-christian,you talk a lot about jesus

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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