Forced baptism
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16-05-2011, 03:36 PM
Forced baptism
My girlfriend's niece is being baptized shortly. Since I am sort of her uncle, I am to attend the service with a smile. Not easy for a debaptized individual like myself, but the girl is from a creationist family.

I feel like such a coward because I don't speak up. That baby is being forced into a religion that ranks her as a second grade individual. Why doesn't she get the choice?

My girlfriend is an atheist too (more of an I don't care agnostic that loves science but hates philosophy and existentialism), but she strictly forbids me to talk about it. They don't want a family feud because of me.

Being tough and all on a forum is one thing, but being consequent in real life is different. Ok, I won't accomplish anything by making people angry. I'd just like to be a guy that can "save" the girl from the clutches of an evil organisation. You might think it's just a splash of water, but for me it matters.


Toughts? suggestions?


I was thinking of wearing an atheist shirt in church, but I don't think my GF will allow it. She's kinda bossy when it comes to these things.

"Infinitus est numerus stultorum." (The number of fools is infinite)
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16-05-2011, 03:41 PM
RE: Forced baptism
To be evil, it suffices for a good man to do nothing...

Sorry Thammuz, but the parents are going to have the last word.

Basically this is why I don't want my daughter to be baptized. I refuse to indoctrinate her into an organization where she will be considered "less" from the start only because she is female.
Maybe you can say that to the parents during the day somewhere...

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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16-05-2011, 03:41 PM
 
RE: Forced baptism
Shit, that's a tough situation to be in man. In my opinion the best thing for you to do is to just play it cool, and then when the girl is older, explain to her the truth, and let her decide. I know why you want to rescue her from her baptism, but if you do anything like wear an atheist shirt into the church you'll just cause trouble. There's a time and a place for things like that. On a much lighter scale, for the retards in the church, to them you wearing an atheist shirt would be like the WBC protesters at a fallen soldiers funeral.
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16-05-2011, 04:42 PM
 
RE: Forced baptism
Well, if it's the sprinkle baptism as in the Priest pours water on the baby's forehead, you could always cup your hand over that spot so the water hits the back of your hand first, while imagining your touch is a shield against the dousing of idiocy.

Other than that, it's not your baby so you really can't say anything that those who are creationists and breed, have to listen to. If you did speak up, they'd see you as the Devil or a test of their faith.

In the meantime, I like how you said your GF won't 'let' you wear an atheist tee shirt. "Let" Tongue As in when I was a child I obeyed what my parents had to say, because I lived by permission.
My husband once had a friend that asked him if his wife would "let" him go fishing. My husband laughed his bloody ass off and said; let? You clearly don't know my wife!

If you want to wear an atheist tee shirt under a suit coat so as to attend this dousing of innocence into what initiates a slave mentality, do it! Otherwise, what do you have to say against it, when you're enslaved by "let" ?
As a grown man!
And if it's easier to go along so as to get along, you gotta figure someone that knows that is going to use that to lead you by the...nose, all the days you let them.


Good luck.
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16-05-2011, 05:10 PM
RE: Forced baptism
(16-05-2011 04:42 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  In the meantime, I like how you said your GF won't 'let' you wear an atheist tee shirt. "Let" Tongue As in when I was a child I obeyed what my parents had to say, because I lived by permission.
My husband once had a friend that asked him if his wife would "let" him go fishing. My husband laughed his bloody ass off and said; let? You clearly don't know my wife!

Well, no sex for a month or making a statement: tough choice Tongue

It's not that she's bossy, but since it's her family, I think she should have a say in this. If it's my family, it's the other way around. She kept her mouth shut plenty of times. And I can go fishing, drinking, partying whenever I want, don't worry Smile

"Infinitus est numerus stultorum." (The number of fools is infinite)
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16-05-2011, 05:15 PM
RE: Forced baptism
Horrible, I know, but there's really nothing you can do. Even if you managed to somehow stop the baptism, she would still be raised religious.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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16-05-2011, 07:17 PM
 
RE: Forced baptism
(16-05-2011 05:10 PM)Thammuz Wrote:  
(16-05-2011 04:42 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  In the meantime, I like how you said your GF won't 'let' you wear an atheist tee shirt. "Let" Tongue As in when I was a child I obeyed what my parents had to say, because I lived by permission.
My husband once had a friend that asked him if his wife would "let" him go fishing. My husband laughed his bloody ass off and said; let? You clearly don't know my wife!

Well, no sex for a month or making a statement: tough choice Tongue
Not with two hands! HAAAAAA!
Ewwwwwwwwwwww!

Quote:It's not that she's bossy, but since it's her family, I think she should have a say in this. If it's my family, it's the other way around. She kept her mouth shut plenty of times. And I can go fishing, drinking, partying whenever I want, don't worry Smile
Actually, no one but the parents really have a say in any of it. Because they raise the child.
And your lady and her family should know you're atheist, right?
Right? *arches eyebrows, munches brownie and waits for nod from your side of the swamp*
If you're opposed, why not say so on a shirt when they have no problem inviting you to a church? Of course, being a church I'd think you'd have a suite coat over it, so that it's subtle and yet, still just as bold a statement for your side, since you're part of the family given your doing the daughter. Wink

Let me ask you this, what would you say if the child's parents asked you what you thought of the Baptism?
(Remember and repeat after me. I have two hands! I have two hands! And paper towels. I have two...)
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16-05-2011, 09:23 PM
RE: Forced baptism
If you continue to be in contact with the niece, then you can always have discussions and approach things from a rational perspective (not necessarily identifying yourself as atheist or against religion, etc). You can ask 'well, how do you know that' and similar questions to get him/her to actually think about what they believe and why.

"Teach a man to reason, and he'll think for a lifetime" - Phil Plait.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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16-05-2011, 10:08 PM
 
RE: Forced baptism
But if it turns out that God actually does exist, won't going into one of his wee houses with an atheist shirt on cause you to spontaneously combust?
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16-05-2011, 10:18 PM
RE: Forced baptism
Hey, Thammuz.

Flip it around. What if your son was accepted to MIT and your brother in law tore up his acceptance letter and told you that he forbade him from going to that den of lies, sin and blasphemy? My guess would be you'd say something along the lines of, "I don't give a fuck what you think and how dare you interfere!"

The family doesn't stop being the family because you're dating your girlfriend. If you were dating a woman with an ethnic family, would you pipe up if they engaged in a cultural practice you don't agree with? If your girlfriend was a vegetarian, how would you feel if she called out your parents for serving turkey at Thanksgiving?

Your beliefs are your beliefs. You can cherish them and live a happy life, or shove them in people's faces and be evangelical about them. But I imagine that you're the sort of reasonable person that's above that sort of thing.

When I was a vegan (for 7.5 years) I happily went to people's homes on Thanksgiving and watched them eat turkey. I just didn't do it myself. I made a very conscious decision that I was not going to be a “Vegan Nazi”. I didn't hassle them about what they were doing and I was honest about what I believed and content to just be myself. "What was that? Oh I don't eat meat because of X, Y and Z and yes thank you, I'm very happy because of it. Thank you for making the mashed potatoes with margarine and no milk. That was very thoughtful. They're delicious." If someone taxed me about being a vegan, which is rare but there's always the combative one, I defended myself within reason, but who wants to fight at a family outing? Besides, most families will berate that sort of person for picking a fight with a guest at a family gathering. “You’re cut off, Bill. I still haven’t forgiven you for getting bombed at Grandma’s funeral!” And if the entire family turns on you, well, know when you’re not wanted. But when I did go over to omnivorous households, I never wore a vegan t-shirt because that basically says, "that's right, bitches, I'm a mutha fuckin vegan. So what, you wanna fight about it, you flesh eating pigs?! How's your dinner? Can you taste the suffering? Fuck you! Animal liberation now, cockmouths!" <throws blood on them>

If I was raising a child as a vegan and a cattle rancher came over to my house at dinner time and slapped a t-bone on my daughter’s plate and told her that she just had to eat meat to be considered reasonable, I'd knock his fucking teeth out.

If they ask you if you're going to baptise your child you can smile, say, “no,” and have some punch, or you can frown, say, “no, you fucking cultists, I don’t spreken the insane, so go fuck yourselves.”

If this baptism thing is that important to you, if you are so against their way of life and what they’re “doing” to their daughter that you can't even associate with them, then don't go to the baptism and accept the interpersonal consequences. It's better to tell people that they offend you than to walk amongst them pretending they don't. That's insulting. And if you seriously can't deal with her family because of what they believe, you better tell your girlfriend the truth now, cause that shit will only blow up in everyone's face later on down the line. If you're going to make her choose between you and her family, get it over with now. My guess (and if I crossed a line here, put me in my place) is that the reason she forbids you to talk about it is because she doesn’t want to be put in a position where she has to make that choice.

That being said, if you can just accept that their beliefs are different than yours but that people are people and that people are more important than ideas, then support your girlfriend's family on a day that is very important to them.

Any way you slice it though, you are going to have to accept that you're not this girl's parents. That is fact. To accept anything other than that is delusional.

Hey, Bird.

Good point about the tshirt=WBC thing.

As for telling her when she's older, it depends on if you're telling her for your sake (universal you) or for her sake. Ie, are you doing her a favour or doing yourself a favour.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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