Forced baptism
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16-05-2011, 11:06 PM
RE: Forced baptism
Ghost, I think you're off base a little. I don't think anyone was proposing the idea of swearing or yelling, so your first analogy doesn't really apply. The problem is, this isn't just a choice like whether or not you eat meat (which people actually care a decent amount about, to be fair), this is about parents potentially screwing up another life via indoctrination.

I don't think Thammuz is proposing wearing a shirt like this:

[Image: i_think_therefore_im_atheist_bold_t_shir...6g_210.jpg]

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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17-05-2011, 01:23 AM
RE: Forced baptism
I actually agree with Ghost on this one. As awful as it is that a creationist family is going to indoctrinate yet another child, it is their child. As a parent myself, who raised my daughter as an atheist, I would be livid if someone came to a family gathering and started telling my daughter that I was full of shit and that she should believe in God or burn in hell. While a case can be made that religion is "child abuse" the law is far from supporting that point of view and it simply is not your place to protest that baptism unless you do it by simply not attending.

A close friend of my family died last Saturday. Her funeral is on Wednesday. It will be a Catholic affair. I plan to attend (so far) but I certainly do not plan to start pointing out the extreme unlikelihood that there is a heaven and that this woman's soul is now residing there. And I won't be wearing an atheist t-shirt to it, either. It's not the time or place to be confrontational about the matter. If I decide I wont' be able to stomach the religious sermons and everyone talking about how she's "with God now" then I will send my apologies, express my sympathies, and simply not attend.

I think in your case, as it is your girlfriend's family, you need to respect her wishes in this matter, and not cause a scene or embarrass her. As you say, she's done the same for you in the past. Unless you plan to remove this child from the custody of its parents and ensure it is raised as an atheist, trying to stop or even protesting the baptism would be pointless anyway. All you would acheive is getting yourself sent to the doghouse for a month.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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17-05-2011, 05:50 AM
RE: Forced baptism
I agree on Mike and Ghost.

As I said before, Its the parent's choice.

In basis this is what it means to be secular. "Religion is a private matter and free choice". Since the parents are still stewards over the child's best interest, they are free to choose baptism as well.

What you could do however is ask some critical questions to the parents later that day, about their believes. Mostly children are just baptised out reasons of conformity.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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17-05-2011, 07:39 AM
RE: Forced baptism
If I wear in your place and decided to take action, I'd probably talk to the parents and see if you could somehow convince them not to instill the crazy 100% in the girl. And I don't fully agree with Ghost. While I agree people have a freedom to raise their children how they want, and that includes religious people, I'm uncomfortable when it comes to the Jesus nut, YEC types. If you want to raise a child to be a vegetarian that's fine, but there is a line somewhere I believe. Eventually cultural practices drift into child abuse, and I'm not sure which side raising a woman to believe she is inferior to a man is. Or homeschooling them and teaching them demented form of reality, never to have them actually learn much of anything.

But, they have a legal right to raise their child that way, so my frustrated musing are just that.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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17-05-2011, 09:08 AM
 
RE: Forced baptism
(16-05-2011 10:08 PM)Kthulu Wrote:  But if it turns out that God actually does exist, won't going into one of his wee houses with an atheist shirt on cause you to spontaneously combust?

Well, that would certainly be the litmus test to prove one way or the other! God exists, atheist matchstick!
God doesn't exist, confused Theists wondering what's that say under the front lapels of that lovely suit coat.

I say we find out one way or the other.

And send, Ghost! [Image: 3b8b0d89.gif]


Because I'm busy that day. [Image: ed225a081f07b1bc22147003035618bcebb.gif]

(What day is that?
Any day! Tongue)

(16-05-2011 11:06 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Ghost, I think you're off base a little. I don't think anyone was proposing the idea of swearing or yelling, so your first analogy doesn't really apply. The problem is, this isn't just a choice like whether or not you eat meat (which people actually care a decent amount about, to be fair), this is about parents potentially screwing up another life via indoctrination.

I don't think Thammuz is proposing wearing a shirt like this:

[Image: i_think_therefore_im_atheist_bold_t_shir...6g_210.jpg]

It's more than a little off base. To think an atheist wearing an atheist tee shirt to a Baptism is relative in comparison to the bigotry, hate, and homophobia WBC demonstrates is a correlation to out field.
It's especially insulting to project Thammuz is like unto WBC, because of the initial projection he'd wear a shirt that is as revolting in it's message as WBC are.


Then again, Ghost isn't an atheist so it's a matter of perspective.

An atheist deserves as much respect as anyone else, when they earn it. If one's family knows they're atheist and invite them to a baptism they know full well what that ritual means to the atheist. Especially when it's a ritual meant to indoctrinate a newborn into mental slavery before she/he can form rational thought.
Hard wiring, from the time a person is an infant, is what insures generational cult programming throughout the whole of Theist society/culture.

An atheist, Thammuz or otherwise, would have something to say about and to that if it were any family member, and the occasion arose. Muting Thammuz so as to pander to a cult ideology that presumes itself dominant upon the whole of the earth, isn't an example of tolerance. It's an example of projecting atheism has something to hide. Whether it speaks or not.
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17-05-2011, 02:05 PM
RE: Forced baptism
Hey, Daemonowner.

Dude, if someone uses the term "cockmouths" in a sentence, you can assume it's humour. Saying that it's confrontational is not off base. Chill out.

I don't subscribe to the notion that raising a child in your tradition screws up their life, so I'll just bow out of that one.

Hey, Hotrod.

Word.

I think the child abuse thing is garbage though. The argument cheapens child abuse. It's like hijacking rape to make a point. It isn't reasonable and it's kinda dangerous.

My condolences on your loss, brother. Straight up.

Hey, Ashley.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what's a YEC type?

Hey, Gassy.

Gassy Wrote:It's more than a little off base. To think an atheist wearing an atheist tee shirt to a Baptism is relative in comparison to the bigotry, hate, and homophobia WBC demonstrates is a correlation to out field.

Then it's a good thing that Bird said it Tongue

But I do agree with it, not because of a direct comparison between Thammuz and the WBC but because of an analogy: they would both amount to a confrontational attempt to disrupt a disagreed with practice. Bird was just (tell me if I'm misrepresenting you, Bird) trying to empathise with the baptising family's perspective.

Gassy Wrote:Then again, Ghost isn't an atheist so it's a matter of perspective.

Not sure what this means, but my confusion might be due to my flaming skull. It's rather disorienting. And disconcerting. And disfiguring. Basiclly it's a dis.... Hey wait a minute!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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17-05-2011, 02:41 PM
RE: Forced baptism
I agree with Hotrod and Ghost, but I also agree with the quote about doing nothing being evil. In this case though the only logical option is to do nothing (in my opinion of course). I disagree with kids being raised religiously and there are kids within my own family being raised that way, but they are not my kids. When my nieces and nephews are old enough to ask questions about the world around them and are old enough to hold an intelligent conversation on the matter I would love to talk with them about it and give them an alternative perspective. Not force my views on them or undermine their parents. Trying to interfere with the ceremony would be very disrespectful (just like in hotrods example: sorry for your loss by the way hotrod). The only other option that I would consider would be to talk with the parents about it before the ceremony, even that though is likely to do nothing more than anger them. All in all the only way to have a positive impact on the child's life (or anyone's life for that matter) is to talk with them about it in a logical and respectful way when they are ready for it.

I was baptized when I was 10ish (I think) in a southern baptist church and I look back at it now as nothing more than a public bath in my clothes in a suspiciously warm bathtub.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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17-05-2011, 03:05 PM
 
Tongue Baptism - Waterboarding for wimps!
(17-05-2011 02:05 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Gassy.

Gassy Wrote:It's more than a little off base. To think an atheist wearing an atheist tee shirt to a Baptism is relative in comparison to the bigotry, hate, and homophobia WBC demonstrates is a correlation to out field.

Then it's a good thing that Bird said it Tongue
Hello, my name is Gassy. Does this eye make my reading comprehension look small? [Image: 3.gif]

Yes, I was talking to Bird. I know that now. I'd read a comment to Ghost that included the WBC mention and evidently my reading comprehension skill meter tilted to asshole mode, and I jumped at the wrong comment.
Apologies, Ghost. Smile

And no, I'm not going to hand you the hose! It's an experiment after all and I figure one way or the other peace, love and empathy could stand to take one for the team. [Image: 11.gif]

Tongue

[Image: 6.gif]
The Trouble With Baptists Is They Don't Hold Them Under Long Enough!
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17-05-2011, 04:44 PM
RE: Forced baptism
(17-05-2011 02:05 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Ashley.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what's a YEC type?

Young Earth Creationist is what YEC stands for, but I was mostly referring to the crazies, the people who tend to follow the more immoral parts of the bible. The people who like to raise their children in a mentality that they shouldn't communicate with "heathens" or "pagans" unless to try to convert, that females are inferior to men, and shouldn't try for an education, but to get married as soon as possible. That homosexuals need to be punished, and that birth control of any sort is a sin. Those kinds. I tend not to tell people how to raise their children, but there gets to be a point when I really wish they wouldn't raise them in such ways.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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18-05-2011, 01:26 AM
RE: Forced baptism
Thanks for the condolences, folks.

Something else I should have mentioned is that my two brothers and I were all baptised as Catholics when we were infants, but we were all atheists by the time we were 13-15 years old. My younger brother was probably an atheist by the time he was 12, and he was the only one of us sent to a Catholic School, where religion was a daily class like English and Math (and completely turned him against the religion they were trying to hardwire into him). I presume many of us on this forum know from personal experience that baptism, or even being raised in a creationist home, doesn't exactly guarantee the child will end up a creationist. So if I was Thammuz, I wouldn't sweat it.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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