Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
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09-10-2017, 10:13 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
I think we must have killed one of their mates and they can smell it or something, FC, because the cockroaches just keep crawling here in droves [Image: smh.gif]

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09-10-2017, 10:50 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
The irony, it burns! Smile

   

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10-10-2017, 01:38 AM
Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
It's nothing on those Chicago Blackhawks hockey fans that clap and hoot during the national anthem, many have called it disrespectful too but i never heard it cause a boycott claim.

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10-10-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(09-10-2017 06:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  From where I am sitting, nobody had any problem with the kneeling back when it originally happened. They had a problem with the cause.

Well hopefully we can peacefully agree to disagree. I think it was much more the method than the cause. The huge fuss plows forward, obviously (not on this thread, I mean real life). Now the owner of the Cowboys is threatening to not play any players that don't stand for the anthem, he is not threatening them for the cause of their not standing.

(09-10-2017 06:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  It didn't happen until months later that trump spoke or tweeted or whatever about it being disrespectful to the flag, and then, and only then, did people start complaining about it.

I just don't think this is accurate. This has been a big deal for a long time, we probably even have threads about it here before Trump jumped in.

(09-10-2017 06:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  The NFL refused to accept trump as an owner some time ago, and he is on a revenge trail. Malignant narcissists don't forget slights, and they have to win, so they compulsively have to get even. He is doing this now merely to undermine the NFL.

I agree with that, as well as him using it as red meat for the base.

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10-10-2017, 06:28 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(09-10-2017 09:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 08:44 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Did you really need to call me a fucking moron?

Someone had to. Drinking Beverage

You didn't have to. Dodgy (But it did get four likes!)

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10-10-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(09-10-2017 06:52 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 05:33 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Two things can be similar in many ways and yet have some fundamental differences. Both the civil rights era protests and the NFL kneeling have in common a form of peaceful, non-violent protest. So therefore you've got me in some kind of clever "gotcha"?

No, I was pointing out that you were comparing two cases of peaceful protests and saying one was good and one was bad. I see no essential difference between them

I'm not trying to convince you I'm just replying with my beliefs. I think the National Anthem is the essential factor in this whole discussion.
Quote:
Quote: Are you purposely ignoring the elephant in the room?

Elephant? Its barely a mouse.

Okay.
Quote:
Quote:That kneeling during the national anthem is regarded as perfectly respectable because it's not violent?

In a way. Choosing to protest in a non-violent way that still gets attention does deserve respect in my opinion. Choosing to kneel during the anthem to highlight the fact that this country is not living up to its ideals takes courage.

It does. I don't like it and I wish they didn't do it but it does take courage. I think I've added that to my points a couple times.

Quote:I fail to see how that analogy works. Kneeling does not harm anyone in any way but does make it clear that they don't think the USA is doing the right thing. I think that exemplifies the principles that the country is supposed to be all about quite well. The people kneeling are more patriotic than many of the people standing.

I get what you're saying. And many of the people standing are beer-soaked idiots who couldn't tell the Dec of Indep from the Constitution. But many others, like myself, think the anthem and flag "exemplifies the principles that the country is supposed to be all about." We're entitled to our opinion and I'm stunned by the people here who express this bafflement and confusion (not you, but others in this thread) about why people don't like the kneeling (they must be all fucking racists, 100% right?), it's madness.

Quote:I'm still trying to figure out why standing for the anthem is more important than standing for your principles.

Nothing is more important than your principles. One of my principles is disgust for people who choose stupid and ineffective ways of expressing their principles (that was awkward). I'll take "The 83,883th least effective way of drawing attention to police brutality" for 400, Alex!

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10-10-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(09-10-2017 09:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I'm still waiting Jerry. Do you have any ideas for protest that are not shrouded in nationalism?

Oh Banjo for fuck's sake use your own imagination. Here, this will take me about two minutes to come up with something:

In the US during the Civil Rights movement you had these young University students, Black and White, who defied restaurant segregation by having "Sit ins." They went to the white-only counter, sat down, and politely asked to be served. They were treated like shit, the local white thugs pushed up against them and poured syrup and shit on their heads.

Just think about the nobility of that. Non-violent. They just fucking sat there, wanting the same treatment that any white would get. They wanted to sit there like humans and get a fucking sandwich, chips, and a coke.

Is that good enough?

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10-10-2017, 07:52 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 06:54 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I think the National Anthem is the essential factor in this whole discussion.
That's why you are missing the point of the protest.
(10-10-2017 06:54 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  But many others, like myself, think the anthem and flag "exemplifies the principles that the country is supposed to be all about."

That is the point of the protest and why it is important that it does involve the flag and the anthem. No one is protesting what they are "suppose" to be about, they are protesting the actions of a nation that supposedly espouses those values but day after day chooses to ignore the fact that those values are not being honored.

There is more in the protest that honors the values built into the flag and anthem than disrespects them.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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10-10-2017, 08:27 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 07:52 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 06:54 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I think the National Anthem is the essential factor in this whole discussion.
That's why you are missing the point of the protest.
(10-10-2017 06:54 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  But many others, like myself, think the anthem and flag "exemplifies the principles that the country is supposed to be all about."

That is the point of the protest and why it is important that it does involve the flag and the anthem. No one is protesting what they are "suppose" to be about, they are protesting the actions of a nation that supposedly espouses those values but day after day chooses to ignore the fact that those values are not being honored.

I'm not missing the point, I just don't agree. It doesn't have to involve the flag and the anthem. It really doesn't. But I understand and respect your point of view...which isn't a very satisfying reply but I think I've expressed everything I want to say about it.

Quote:There is more in the protest that honors the values built into the flag and anthem than disrespects them.

Maybe so. I would prefer it not disrespect them at all.

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10-10-2017, 09:03 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 08:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:52 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's why you are missing the point of the protest.

That is the point of the protest and why it is important that it does involve the flag and the anthem. No one is protesting what they are "suppose" to be about, they are protesting the actions of a nation that supposedly espouses those values but day after day chooses to ignore the fact that those values are not being honored.

I'm not missing the point, I just don't agree. It doesn't have to involve the flag and the anthem. It really doesn't. But I understand and respect your point of view...which isn't a very satisfying reply but I think I've expressed everything I want to say about it.

Quote:There is more in the protest that honors the values built into the flag and anthem than disrespects them.

Maybe so. I would prefer it not disrespect them at all.

Okay, I'll concede a point to you for the sake of being candid. I don't think it's the best place for a protest either. I think there are better and more poignant ways to make this protest. I agree that it would be great if it weren't so controversial given the ideological icons involved. I don't even watch football.

But the protest wasn't my idea.

It was made without your our my consideration.

That said, your and my or anyone else's consideration about what would be the most respectful, appropriate and least offensive but yet effective protest means fuck all. Those protests don't exist.

They are making the protest, I agree with the idea behind the protest. I could give a fuck about a song or a flag, while still respecting the ideals behind them and those who have served to protect those ideals.

I choose to respect the protest, because its ideals are pure and if nothing else, American as fuck...at least in the sense that I'd like to think of America, not valuing entertainment over issues.

But of course, everyone's mileage does vary. I think it's fucking dumb that this stand ended up being made in the NFL, but then it is getting the conversation going now isn't it?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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