Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
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10-10-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 08:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:52 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's why you are missing the point of the protest.

That is the point of the protest and why it is important that it does involve the flag and the anthem. No one is protesting what they are "suppose" to be about, they are protesting the actions of a nation that supposedly espouses those values but day after day chooses to ignore the fact that those values are not being honored.

I'm not missing the point, I just don't agree. It doesn't have to involve the flag and the anthem. It really doesn't. But I understand and respect your point of view...which isn't a very satisfying reply but I think I've expressed everything I want to say about it.

Quote:There is more in the protest that honors the values built into the flag and anthem than disrespects them.

Maybe so. I would prefer it not disrespect them at all.

The flag and the anthem are not sacred, they are just symbols. Hyper-nationalism is not attractive or admirable; it can, in fact, be dangerous.

You and the rest of the delicate flowers who are offended really, really need to learn what actual patriotism is.
Whatever it is that you are loyal to, it certainly does not appear to be democratic values, equality, or justice

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10-10-2017, 09:33 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 08:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I would prefer it not disrespect them at all.

Social protests will always ruffle someone’s feathers, usually those that like the status quo.

If the flag represents equality and justice for all and a great many people feel this isn’t the case for them then what could possibly be more American than to exercise your 1st Amendment rights?

The First Amendment states that, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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10-10-2017, 09:46 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
And again, the sheer, mind-boggling irony of using the words American and un-American as if they werethe highest compliment and lowest insult respectively.

And you wonder why the rest of world laughs at you.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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10-10-2017, 09:59 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 09:46 PM)Vera Wrote:  And again, the sheer, mind-boggling irony of using the words American and un-American as if they werethe highest compliment and lowest insult respectively.

And you wonder why the rest of world laughs at you.

If you are referring to my post then in my defense the incident is happening in America, it is only logical that I refer to it as such don’t you think?

I suppose if this were in Brazil I would have said Brazilian.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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10-10-2017, 10:06 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 09:59 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 09:46 PM)Vera Wrote:  And again, the sheer, mind-boggling irony of using the words American and un-American as if they werethe highest compliment and lowest insult respectively.

And you wonder why the rest of world laughs at you.

If you are referring to my post then in my defense the incident is happening in America, it is only logical that I refer to it as such don’t you think?

Maybe referring to me, FC.

"I choose to respect the protest, because its ideals are pure and if nothing else, American as fuck...at least in the sense that I'd like to think of America, not valuing entertainment over issues."

Vera, just using the vernacular of the argument. Trying to talk to the point of perspective of the other person, in the terms that seem relevant to the concerns of the opposing view. Trying to find common ground to get to a shot at communication.

Your point, though, is well noted. Blush
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10-10-2017, 10:12 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
Speaking in general, really. It's a usage I would find hilarious if it wasn't so ludicrous, bordering on abhorrent. The same with that other, even greater absurdity, "leader of the free world". But hell, whatever gets people (and peoples) through the night, I guess.

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10-10-2017, 10:40 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
The NFL is considering forcing players to stand.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-to-stand/

~The NFL hasn’t specifically said that it plans to consider revising the rule that makes standing for the anthem optional, but all signs point to the league taking up the possibility — and quite possibly changing the rule to require standing. Although NFL spokesman Joe Lockhart didn’t say during a Tuesday media briefing that the league definitely will be considering a potential revision to the provision of the game operations manual that says players “should” (not “must”) stand, a discussion/debate over whether to make standing mandatory is possible if not likely, especially in light of recent comments from Cowboys owner Jerry Jones and Dolphins owner Stephen Ross.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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10-10-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 06:54 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 06:52 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, I was pointing out that you were comparing two cases of peaceful protests and saying one was good and one was bad. I see no essential difference between them

I'm not trying to convince you I'm just replying with my beliefs. I think the National Anthem is the essential factor in this whole discussion.
Quote:Elephant? Its barely a mouse.

Okay.
Quote:In a way. Choosing to protest in a non-violent way that still gets attention does deserve respect in my opinion. Choosing to kneel during the anthem to highlight the fact that this country is not living up to its ideals takes courage.

It does. I don't like it and I wish they didn't do it but it does take courage. I think I've added that to my points a couple times.

Quote:I fail to see how that analogy works. Kneeling does not harm anyone in any way but does make it clear that they don't think the USA is doing the right thing. I think that exemplifies the principles that the country is supposed to be all about quite well. The people kneeling are more patriotic than many of the people standing.

I get what you're saying. And many of the people standing are beer-soaked idiots who couldn't tell the Dec of Indep from the Constitution. But many others, like myself, think the anthem and flag "exemplifies the principles that the country is supposed to be all about." We're entitled to our opinion and I'm stunned by the people here who express this bafflement and confusion (not you, but others in this thread) about why people don't like the kneeling (they must be all fucking racists, 100% right?), it's madness.

Quote:I'm still trying to figure out why standing for the anthem is more important than standing for your principles.

Nothing is more important than your principles. One of my principles is disgust for people who choose stupid and ineffective ways of expressing their principles (that was awkward). I'll take "The 83,883th least effective way of drawing attention to police brutality" for 400, Alex!

I think the confusion is how often the the so called principles the country is supposed to be represented by the symbols is what others say is exactly what is being done.

I've never sure what principles the country is supposed to be about at any given time because apparently it changes in the whims of the tradition proclaimers.

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11-10-2017, 03:25 AM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 06:54 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Nothing is more important than your principles. One of my principles is disgust for people who choose stupid and ineffective ways of expressing their principles (that was awkward).

And has that principle served you well? Works well at your job does it? Got you a raise or promotion? Makes you fun at parties? "Jerry, the current architectural design is ineffective at expressing the functional requirements of the system." "You disgust me, Bob." "Uhhh, okay. Should I modify the architecture?" "You disgust me, Bob." You have rather perverse principles.

#sigh
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11-10-2017, 03:30 AM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 07:00 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I'm still waiting Jerry. Do you have any ideas for protest that are not shrouded in nationalism?

Oh Banjo for fuck's sake use your own imagination. Here, this will take me about two minutes to come up with something:

In the US during the Civil Rights movement you had these young University students, Black and White, who defied restaurant segregation by having "Sit ins." They went to the white-only counter, sat down, and politely asked to be served. They were treated like shit, the local white thugs pushed up against them and poured syrup and shit on their heads.

Just think about the nobility of that. Non-violent. They just fucking sat there, wanting the same treatment that any white would get. They wanted to sit there like humans and get a fucking sandwich, chips, and a coke.

Is that good enough?

All Kaepernick did initially was just sit there. It was only when people started to comment that sitting during the national anthem was disrespectful that he started kneeling as a sign of respect instead of just sitting there.

#sigh
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