Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
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11-10-2017, 07:45 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 07:04 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 03:25 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And has that principle served you well? Works well at your job does it? Got you a raise or promotion? Makes you fun at parties? "Jerry, the current architectural design is ineffective at expressing the functional requirements of the system." "You disgust me, Bob." "Uhhh, okay. Should I modify the architecture?" "You disgust me, Bob." You have rather perverse principles.

"Disgust" is probably the wrong word. Something more akin to "Slapping my forehead in bemused disappointment" Wish there was an emoticon for it...aha! Here, this: Facepalm For example: "Jerry, I built the house according to the plans but I had it upside down and now the roof is on the bottom and the floor is on top. That's still cool, right Jerry?" Facepalm "Goddammit Bob!"

Or: "Hey Jerry, we want to protest police brutality against minorities, we're going to kneel during the National Anthem at football games, even though it's widely understood that doing anything other than standing is considered jaw-droppingly disrespectful! That's cool, right Jerry?" Facepalm "Goddammit Girly!"
Still don't get this blown out of proportions view if what was always known to be so the only way to be during the national anthem.

There's specific sports crowds that clap the entire song or alter lyrics like in Detroit they shout rockets Red-Wings! Glare... or others examples of total no hatred or disrespect by it.

Also some bring up trump at debates he just stood there as hypocritical because actually just "standing" based on whatever random military or moral prescribed code of rules day you're supposed to properly stand hand over heart or hands held together behind the back. And standing without it is as disrespecting as any.

The pins of tradition and honor are so often arbitrarily applied they do get little respect from people who don't have an honor or tradition loving value system.

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11-10-2017, 08:25 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 07:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 07:04 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  "Disgust" is probably the wrong word. Something more akin to "Slapping my forehead in bemused disappointment" Wish there was an emoticon for it...aha! Here, this: Facepalm For example: "Jerry, I built the house according to the plans but I had it upside down and now the roof is on the bottom and the floor is on top. That's still cool, right Jerry?" Facepalm "Goddammit Bob!"

Or: "Hey Jerry, we want to protest police brutality against minorities, we're going to kneel during the National Anthem at football games, even though it's widely understood that doing anything other than standing is considered jaw-droppingly disrespectful! That's cool, right Jerry?" Facepalm "Goddammit Girly!"
Still don't get this blown out of proportions view if what was always known to be so the only way to be during the national anthem.

There's specific sports crowds that clap the entire song or alter lyrics like in Detroit they shout rockets Red-Wings! Glare... or others examples of total no hatred or disrespect by it.

Also some bring up trump at debates he just stood there as hypocritical because actually just "standing" based on whatever random military or moral prescribed code of rules day you're supposed to properly stand hand over heart or hands held together behind the back. And standing without it is as disrespecting as any.

The pins of tradition and honor are so often arbitrarily applied they do get little respect from people who don't have an honor or tradition loving value system.

I think they should go all fucking Maori during the anthem.




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11-10-2017, 08:47 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 07:05 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  So you find no difference at all, really, between the Civil Rights Era Sit Ins and Kaepernick sitting during the anthem because...they both...involve...sitting. There's also no difference between them because, oh, I don't know, they both involve people from planet Earth?

No, Jerry, because both acts resulted in eerily similar consequences, Jerry.

How you gonna feel if NFL tries to force players to stand now and they all stand upright and go John Carlos and Tommie Smith? Even the white dudes. Followed the rules, everybody's standing. How you gonna feel about that? You gonna make them hold their helmet over their heart next? 'Cause what happens next, Jerry, is everybody going Tommie Smith and John Carlos, even the white dudes.

It is going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. Owner of the Cowboys has come out and said anyone who kneels won't play, which is interesting, you still get paid you just don't have to go on the field and get concussed. I hope the entire team takes a knee just to see what happens (no, that is not a contradiction, I still don't like the knee-taking, but this would be insanely interesting theater..."Today's game is cancelled due to lack of Cowboys...").

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11-10-2017, 08:53 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 07:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 07:04 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  "Disgust" is probably the wrong word. Something more akin to "Slapping my forehead in bemused disappointment" Wish there was an emoticon for it...aha! Here, this: Facepalm For example: "Jerry, I built the house according to the plans but I had it upside down and now the roof is on the bottom and the floor is on top. That's still cool, right Jerry?" Facepalm "Goddammit Bob!"

Or: "Hey Jerry, we want to protest police brutality against minorities, we're going to kneel during the National Anthem at football games, even though it's widely understood that doing anything other than standing is considered jaw-droppingly disrespectful! That's cool, right Jerry?" Facepalm "Goddammit Girly!"
Still don't get this blown out of proportions view if what was always known to be so the only way to be during the national anthem.

There's specific sports crowds that clap the entire song or alter lyrics like in Detroit they shout rockets Red-Wings! Glare... or others examples of total no hatred or disrespect by it.

Also some bring up trump at debates he just stood there as hypocritical because actually just "standing" based on whatever random military or moral prescribed code of rules day you're supposed to properly stand hand over heart or hands held together behind the back. And standing without it is as disrespecting as any.

The pins of tradition and honor are so often arbitrarily applied they do get little respect from people who don't have an honor or tradition loving value system.

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There's always exceptions to the rule but I think you're going to have a hard time demonstrating there is any widely known, widely practiced American behavior during the anthem of anything but just standing there. I'm not familiar with the Red Wings thing, that is interesting. I do thank you for not being the next person to post that 1968 pic of the two guys holding up the black power sign...its repeated use speaks volumes about how rare it was.

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11-10-2017, 09:00 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2017 09:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 08:53 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 07:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Still don't get this blown out of proportions view if what was always known to be so the only way to be during the national anthem.

There's specific sports crowds that clap the entire song or alter lyrics like in Detroit they shout rockets Red-Wings! Glare... or others examples of total no hatred or disrespect by it.

Also some bring up trump at debates he just stood there as hypocritical because actually just "standing" based on whatever random military or moral prescribed code of rules day you're supposed to properly stand hand over heart or hands held together behind the back. And standing without it is as disrespecting as any.

The pins of tradition and honor are so often arbitrarily applied they do get little respect from people who don't have an honor or tradition loving value system.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

There's always exceptions to the rule but I think you're going to have a hard time demonstrating there is any widely known, widely practiced American behavior during the anthem of anything but just standing there. I'm not familiar with the Red Wings thing, that is interesting. I do thank you for not being the next person to post that 1968 pic of the two guys holding up the black power sign...its repeated use speaks volumes about how rare it was.

This is how we used to salute and pledge allegiance to the flag until 22 Dec 1942, fucking Jerry. You really don't know shit about our history do you, Jerry?

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11-10-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(10-10-2017 07:00 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I'm still waiting Jerry. Do you have any ideas for protest that are not shrouded in nationalism?

Oh Banjo for fuck's sake use your own imagination. Here, this will take me about two minutes to come up with something:

In the US during the Civil Rights movement you had these young University students, Black and White, who defied restaurant segregation by having "Sit ins." They went to the white-only counter, sat down, and politely asked to be served. They were treated like shit, the local white thugs pushed up against them and poured syrup and shit on their heads.

Just think about the nobility of that. Non-violent. They just fucking sat there, wanting the same treatment that any white would get. They wanted to sit there like humans and get a fucking sandwich, chips, and a coke.

Is that good enough?


Got it. Football players should sit down during the anthem.

Thanks.

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11-10-2017, 09:13 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(09-10-2017 05:48 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 06:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  In the broad strokes, raising awareness of the issue through peaceful protest, would have to be near the top of the list of things that helped. I fail to see how these NFL players don't fit under that large and well worm umbrella.

Broad strokes indeed. Broad enough to erase the reality that kneeling during the national anthem

Consider


Plus, lest we forget, they're following precedent.

[Image: 586bdcfe1900002b000e2a95.jpeg?cache=zngy..._noupscale]

You're making my point! The '68 fists in the air was the most recent incarnation of this kind of protest? The only one you and Girly (I assume he wasn't sitting at the desk next to yours copying your paper) could come up with? Does that not tell you something? It was exceptional, remarkable, eye-opening, and so fucking daring it goes down in history and was so ballsy no one has done it since (before Kap). Why was it so outrageous? What was the big fucking deal, it was just non-violent peaceful protest blah blah blah the big deal was it was widely considered disrespectful, outrageously disrespectful. It broke a taboo. It was destined to be unpopular by the general public, because, I feel like I'm wasting my breath here, anything but standing for the anthem in the US is considered disrespectful.

A "precedent" in history is generally an event that shifts behavior- for example, presidential precedents like serving no more than two terms (before the 22nd amendment) because Washington didn't or not consulting much with the Senate in person (because Washington didn't), or Supreme Court decisions that alter views of future cases. The '68 black power thing WAS NOT a precedent, it was the opposite of a precedent, the backlash was so great that it served as a reminder to society that anything other than standing for the anthem is frowned upon.

It's okay if you or everybody on this forum think it's cool and respectable to kneel during the national anthem, but to post that picture as if to demonstrate it's normal common accepted behavior is a joke.

At what point in my quote there do I bring up anything about respect?

I could care fucking less about the 'respectful' part. If they think that their fellow black Americans are still being treated as second class citizens, why should they care about 'respecting' the delicate sensibilities of poor white people? Fuck that patronizing bullshit.

My point was that you dismissing their protest as ineffectual, even as the nation itself stops and talks about it. That assertions was ludicrous even at face value, and I was surprised you could make it with a straight face.

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11-10-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 09:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 08:53 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  There's always exceptions to the rule but I think you're going to have a hard time demonstrating there is any widely known, widely practiced American behavior during the anthem of anything but just standing there. I'm not familiar with the Red Wings thing, that is interesting. I do thank you for not being the next person to post that 1968 pic of the two guys holding up the black power sign...its repeated use speaks volumes about how rare it was.

This is how we used to salute and pledge allegiance to the flag until 22 Dec 1942, fucking Jerry. You really don't know shit about our history do you, Jerry?

[Image: W85i8Aw.jpg]

Facepalm Fucking Jerry knows the difference between the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem.

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11-10-2017, 09:39 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL
(11-10-2017 09:13 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 05:48 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  You're making my point! The '68 fists in the air was the most recent incarnation of this kind of protest? The only one you and Girly (I assume he wasn't sitting at the desk next to yours copying your paper) could come up with? Does that not tell you something? It was exceptional, remarkable, eye-opening, and so fucking daring it goes down in history and was so ballsy no one has done it since (before Kap). Why was it so outrageous? What was the big fucking deal, it was just non-violent peaceful protest blah blah blah the big deal was it was widely considered disrespectful, outrageously disrespectful. It broke a taboo. It was destined to be unpopular by the general public, because, I feel like I'm wasting my breath here, anything but standing for the anthem in the US is considered disrespectful.

A "precedent" in history is generally an event that shifts behavior- for example, presidential precedents like serving no more than two terms (before the 22nd amendment) because Washington didn't or not consulting much with the Senate in person (because Washington didn't), or Supreme Court decisions that alter views of future cases. The '68 black power thing WAS NOT a precedent, it was the opposite of a precedent, the backlash was so great that it served as a reminder to society that anything other than standing for the anthem is frowned upon.

It's okay if you or everybody on this forum think it's cool and respectable to kneel during the national anthem, but to post that picture as if to demonstrate it's normal common accepted behavior is a joke.

At what point in my quote there do I bring up anything about respect?

Sorry. I'm losing track of who said what.

Quote:I could care fucking less about the 'respectful' part. If they think that their fellow black Americans are still being treated as second class citizens, why should they care about 'respecting' the delicate sensibilities of poor white people? Fuck that patronizing bullshit.

They don't have to care, that's their business. Sometimes protesters don't care at all whether what they do is effective, or even realize it's counter-productive, it's just a chance to blow off steam and get an opinion out...and I mean that in a good way, freedom of speech is good to just take out for a spin every now and then to make sure it still works. But if you don't consider the sensibilities (delicate or otherwise) of your audience, don't be shocked and amazed if many people are turned off and tune your actual message out...which is what's happening.

Quote:My point was that you dismissing their protest as ineffectual, even as the nation itself stops and talks about it. That assertions was ludicrous even at face value, and I was surprised you could make it with a straight face.

What is this "it" the nation has stopped and talks about? Racial injustice and police brutality? The topic is crowded out by all the shouting and posturing, the anthem and the flag, the kneeling and the sitting, etc. etc.

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11-10-2017, 09:41 PM
RE: Forced ritual are the demands of despots. NFL


Got it. Football players should sit down during the anthem.

Thanks.
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Enough for one night! Goodnight Banjo.

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