Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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07-02-2016, 01:20 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:16 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:46 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  I disagree. I suggest we keep the non-discrimination laws as they are and if you don't want to serve the public (everyone) don't have a business that is open to the public (everyone).

I can certainly understand where you're coming from. I find this sort of behavior utterly repugnant. I just don't think that forcing them to serve people who they'd sooner spit on is a solution.

You are missing the point. Nobody is forcing them.

If you chose to operate a business, there are laws you must follow, and among those are non-discrimination policies. If you opt-in to running a business, you opt-in to the regulations. You're only 'forced' to serve those people if you are being 'forced' to own and operate your business, and you are not.



(07-02-2016 12:16 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  It drives them underground and makes them feel empowered because their rights (which ammendment gives you the right to act like a braying jack-ass again?) are being infringed, blah, blah, blah.


I highly doubt bigoted restaurant owners who legally refused to serve blacks in the Jim Crow ear south felt less powerful than the ones who had to suck it up and serve blacks afterwards... Dodgy



(07-02-2016 12:16 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I prefer my fascists out in the open, where I can see them and every one of their customers who walks past that big, glaringly bigotted sign. I will be able to easily spot who they are and what they stand for.


They can be out in the open, but they cannot refuse service. They may not be the best option, but sometimes they may be the only option; and the laws need to take that reality into account.



(07-02-2016 12:16 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  A morality enforced by government is no morality at all.


What? Uh, do you not understand how governments work, or why? Blink

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07-02-2016, 01:35 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2016 01:38 AM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
Heather's first post hits the nail.

You don't have the right to refuse servicing someone by basis of who they are.

You do - or should - have the right to refuse performing a specific kind of service.

So one shouldn'e be able to refuse servicing gay person, but one should be able to refuse the service of creating and serving a 'gay cake.'
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07-02-2016, 02:19 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 07:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And at the end of the process ... does one poop pots of gold?

Huh

"keep yer filthy hands off our gold" - leprechauns association
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07-02-2016, 02:26 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:45 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  There's no guarantee that the first baker would charge a fair price and decent reason to believe that he wouldn't. Better that his customers are forewarned what sort of creature might be preparing their wedding cake.

Consider Bob's Cake Store, and Alice's Cake-o-rama. Bob will serve anyone, but his cakes are pricey. Alice won't serve gays, but her cakes are cheap. See the problem? By refusing to serve gays, Alice forces the gay couples who want cakes to go to Bob.

Now let's see if the situation was reversed. Alice charges lots, but refuses to serve gays, but Bob is cheap. No problem? Well, there's still a problem. What if Alice's cakes are nicer than Bob's? Now the gay couple who want a nice cake have to get a crappy one from Bob.

If Alice is *both* more expensive *and* crappier than Bob, cake-wise, then and only then does her business take a hit, but not because of her views, only because of her crappy cakes and expensive prices.

Again, suppose it's widely known that Alice is a bigot. Now people don't really want to buy cakes from her, but she's located *really* conveniently, and her cakes are quite nice too. Am I *really* gonna drive an extra 5 km to make a point to some stupid baker that I support gay rights? Sure, maybe some do, but enough won't, that she'll be fine.

The point is that by refusing to serve gays, then regardless of her pricing structures, Alice is cutting down on the choices of gay couples and creating an unfair situation for them.

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07-02-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 01:35 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Heather's first post hits the nail.

You don't have the right to refuse servicing someone by basis of who they are.

You do - or should - have the right to refuse performing a specific kind of service.

So one shouldn'e be able to refuse servicing gay person, but one should be able to refuse the service of creating and serving a 'gay cake.'

And what, exactly, is a gay cake?

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07-02-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 11:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:51 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  This is BY FAR the most sensible post I've read on this thread. Except I'm torn on the whole advertisement thing. Suppose I don't want to sell to white supremacist group KKK, do I really need to put up a sign stating that?

I would have no problem selling cakes to the KKK. I don't expect that I'd even be aware that they were KKK. If they wanted swastikas or something similarly objectionable I would simply point out my 'no obsenities' policy.

Actually if it was me, I'd sell just about anything to anyone with whatever design they want.....so long as their money is green!

I just think a person should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason without a need to advertise it.

If the dude doesn't want to bake you a cake, then so be it, don't force him to bake you a cake. Give the baker the freedom to bake whatever the fuck he wants. my 2 cents
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07-02-2016, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2016 07:05 AM by Chas.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 06:58 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 11:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I would have no problem selling cakes to the KKK. I don't expect that I'd even be aware that they were KKK. If they wanted swastikas or something similarly objectionable I would simply point out my 'no obsenities' policy.

Actually if it was me, I'd sell just about anything to anyone with whatever design they want.....so long as their money is green!

I just think a person should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason without a need to advertise it.

If the dude doesn't want to bake you a cake, then so be it, don't force him to bake you a cake. Give the baker the freedom to bake whatever the fuck he wants. my 2 cents

The baker can bake whatever the fuck he wants, but he can't refuse to sell the baked goods to whoever the fuck he wants.
You seem to be missing that distinction. Consider

If the baker makes wedding cakes and sells them, he has to sell them to anyone and everyone.
There is no such thing as a "gay wedding cake" except in a bigot's mind.

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07-02-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 06:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 01:35 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Heather's first post hits the nail.

You don't have the right to refuse servicing someone by basis of who they are.

You do - or should - have the right to refuse performing a specific kind of service.

So one shouldn'e be able to refuse servicing gay person, but one should be able to refuse the service of creating and serving a 'gay cake.'

And what, exactly, is a gay cake?

Well, a 'pro-gay cake.' It's a cake that has a pro-gay or pro-gay-marriage cannotation. There is of course no metric that can objectively determine what is or isn't pro-gay; it's up to the baker - and subsequently the judge, should it all go to court by reason of discrimination - to decide that.
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07-02-2016, 07:41 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 07:10 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 06:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  And what, exactly, is a gay cake?

Well, a 'pro-gay cake.' It's a cake that has a pro-gay or pro-gay-marriage cannotation. There is of course no metric that can objectively determine what is or isn't pro-gay; it's up to the baker - and subsequently the judge, should it all go to court by reason of discrimination - to decide that.

Not to derail too badly...
Yet "In God We Trust" is allowed to remain on our money. What was the objective determination that found it not to be pro-religion?
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07-02-2016, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2016 08:06 AM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 07:41 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 07:10 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Well, a 'pro-gay cake.' It's a cake that has a pro-gay or pro-gay-marriage cannotation. There is of course no metric that can objectively determine what is or isn't pro-gay; it's up to the baker - and subsequently the judge, should it all go to court by reason of discrimination - to decide that.

Not to derail too badly...
Yet "In God We Trust" is allowed to remain on our money. What was the objective determination that found it not to be pro-religion?
The god concept can be independent of religious contexts. This is objectively true.

A pro-religious message on currency, assuming it is specificying one religion to the exclusion of others, could conceivably be a breach of the establishment clause, though.
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