Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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07-02-2016, 08:09 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 07:41 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 07:10 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Well, a 'pro-gay cake.' It's a cake that has a pro-gay or pro-gay-marriage cannotation. There is of course no metric that can objectively determine what is or isn't pro-gay; it's up to the baker - and subsequently the judge, should it all go to court by reason of discrimination - to decide that.

Not to derail too badly...
Yet "In God We Trust" is allowed to remain on our money. What was the objective determination that found it not to be pro-religion?
The honest ruling on it, which occurred in a supreme court case in the 1950s was that... well the phrase doesn't really meeeaan anything since it's so vague, so we deem it to not be supporting a religion.

It's not just on money, it's the nation's motto and the Congress around 2011ish actually voted on if it should be upheld.

I just never did agree with the somewhat angle used by people of the hay marriage issue of "do your job" or not... I simply don't get why what happens with the cake is affecting a seller. If someone takes thar wedding cake and then masturbates with the cake ... that person was still sold a wedding cake

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07-02-2016, 08:18 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2016 08:26 AM by pablo.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 08:09 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 07:41 AM)pablo Wrote:  Not to derail too badly...
Yet "In God We Trust" is allowed to remain on our money. What was the objective determination that found it not to be pro-religion?
The honest ruling on it, which occurred in a supreme court case in the 1950s was that... well the phrase doesn't really meeeaan anything since it's so vague, so we deem it to not be supporting a religion.

It's not just on money, it's the nation's motto and the Congress around 2011ish actually voted on if it should be upheld.

I just never did agree with the somewhat angle used by people of the hay marriage issue of "do your job" or not... I simply don't get why what happens with the cake is affecting a seller. If someone takes thar wedding cake and then masturbates with the cake ... that person was still sold a wedding cake

An appeals court ruled on the motto in 2013, the judge also ruled that the federal appeals courts "have found no constitutional violation in the motto's inclusion on currency," and that the placement of the phrase didn't constitute a "substantial burden" on atheists. I was just looking for some sort of consistency in the rulings. I believe another suit was filed about the motto just last month.

Bolding mine.
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07-02-2016, 08:23 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 08:09 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 07:41 AM)pablo Wrote:  Not to derail too badly...
Yet "In God We Trust" is allowed to remain on our money. What was the objective determination that found it not to be pro-religion?
The honest ruling on it, which occurred in a supreme court case in the 1950s was that... well the phrase doesn't really meeeaan anything since it's so vague, so we deem it to not be supporting a religion.

It's not just on money, it's the nation's motto and the Congress around 2011ish actually voted on if it should be upheld.

I just never did agree with the somewhat angle used by people of the hay marriage issue of "do your job" or not... I simply don't get why what happens with the cake is affecting a seller. If someone takes thar wedding cake and then masturbates with the cake ... that person was still sold a wedding cake


It's selective culpability, in that they're only culpable when it's convient for them and their beliefs at any given time.

If you're a clerk and your signature is on a wedding license used by a gay couple to get married? Or a baker who makes a cake used in a wedding for a gay couple? Well they can't have that, because now they're somehow an accessory to making the baby Jesus cry.

But if they're a sales clerk who sells a firearm that is subsequently used to kill someone? Fuck no, they had nothing to do with it! And how dare you question them or the freedom of the market, you pro-nanny state communist! Dodgy

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07-02-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 08:18 AM)pablo Wrote:  SCOTUS ruled on the motto in 2013, I was just looking for some sort of consistency in the rulings. I believe another suit was filed about the motto just last month.

Indeed, and this time they're trying to jujitsu that RIFRA bullshit to their advantage, claiming that carrying around such a motto on our currency is an unnecessary burden to atheistic beliefs. Now considering that the legal bar for such a 'unnecessary burden' is currently 'allowing your employees to fuck recreationally' (i.e. access to contraception through employer healthcare plans), they might actually have a chance at pulling this off. The bar for changing petty bullshit into a legally actionable burden is so fucking low, and the Christians only have themselves to blame for it. Drinking Beverage

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07-02-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
When I first found this thread I was pretty confident in my opinion but reading through all the different points of view I am now far from being confident this is why I love this forum I have come to value having my opinions challenged either directly or indirectly
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07-02-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
Forcing christians to obey the law. That's the question.

If my religious belief and those who share my belief, believe it's OK to crucify homeless people who look like jesus, well that's still against the law.

If you want to only cater to some people, then be prepared for the legal consequences. Hopefully your business won't be in business long.

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07-02-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 06:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 01:35 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Heather's first post hits the nail.

You don't have the right to refuse servicing someone by basis of who they are.

You do - or should - have the right to refuse performing a specific kind of service.

So one shouldn'e be able to refuse servicing gay person, but one should be able to refuse the service of creating and serving a 'gay cake.'

And what, exactly, is a gay cake?

It could be a "gay cake". They could request writing or graphics which are objectionable and the baker does have a right to refuse that. They don't have a right to refuse to sell to gay people.

Like this:

KKK comes in and wants a cake with a black person burning on a cross on their cake or maybe they want "kill niggers". They have a right to say, no.

Maybe a gay guy comes in and wants a cake for a stag party and they request a "butt sex" cake. They have the right to say, no.

A kinky girl wants to order a "cock spewing semen cake" for a girls night in party. They have the right to refuse.

Or a gay couple comes in and wants a wedding cake just like the one on display that is ordered and purchased by others, they have to sell it to them.

That is the difference between making a "cake" that is objectionable and selling to "people" you find objectionable.

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07-02-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 01:47 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 06:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  And what, exactly, is a gay cake?

It could be a "gay cake". They could request writing or graphics which are objectionable and the baker does have a right to refuse that. They don't have a right to refuse to sell to gay people.

Like this:

KKK comes in and wants a cake with a black person burning on a cross on their cake or maybe they want "kill niggers". They have a right to say, no.

Maybe a gay guy comes in and wants a cake for a stag party and they request a "butt sex" cake. They have the right to say, no.

A kinky girl wants to order a "cock spewing semen cake" for a girls night in party. They have the right to refuse.

Or a gay couple comes in and wants a wedding cake just like the one on display that is ordered and purchased by others, they have to sell it to them.

That is the difference between making a "cake" that is objectionable and selling to "people" you find objectionable.

I agree. If someone comes in and requests a graphic cake you should have the right to say no.

But just a regular old cake...sorry.
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07-02-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
Why in the fuck would a gay person want to support a business owner who hates gays? It's the stupidity that blows my mind.

If I was gay, and I found out the business owner hates gays, that would end the conversation right there, and I would be looking to take my business elsewhere.

As Paleo says, I would rather know who the bigots are so I know where NOT to shop. FFS the business owners are only hurting themselves by not accepting gay money.

That said, I don't really give a shit about this, peace out....
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07-02-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 02:33 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Why in the fuck would a gay person want to support a business owner who hates gays? It's the stupidity that blows my mind.

If I was gay, and I found out the business owner hates gays, that would end the conversation right there, and I would be looking to take my business elsewhere.
That would be taking the moral high ground, refusing to buy from someone based on your own moral principles.


Another way to look at it would be that the gay person wants a cake. They buy the cake regardless of the beliefs of the cake seller. They take the cake away and use it however they wish and don't give a second thought as to the cake maker.
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