Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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08-02-2016, 03:22 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 03:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 02:56 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Freedom costs money dude. $$$$$$$$$$ = Freedom.

That's why the sand people are broke and under dictatorships. Usually paid for by $$$$$$ from a richer country.

Who then get their... do Arabs wear knickers... their undergarments in a bunch and get diagnosed with being chronically violent and deserving of repression by the freedom loving societies who paid for the dictatorship.

They just get hemorrhoids.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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08-02-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 01:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Many businesses are not allowed to discriminate in doing business, and that is not a matter of preference, so no, I can't agree that it's "just a matter of preference", myself.

Whether or not you like or dislike that particular law IS A MATTER OF PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
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08-02-2016, 12:10 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 12:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 06:43 PM)Stevil Wrote:  see where that gets us.

Where that gets you is de facto apartheid. Matt, do you have a concrete plan for what happens when businesses discriminate and don't go under? When in contrast, they flourish. When the business interests in a town are all owned by (for example) people of one ethnicity, all of whom like to discriminate? You say the free market will sort such situations out but we know historically that it doesn't, so what magic formula will you apply to human nature to make it happen *this time*?

What the fuck is wrong with laws to ensure that all people get treated fairly regardless of the stupid business owner's personal preference? You claim that we're riding roughshod over the poor business owners personal freedoms but the point is *a business is not personal*. It is NOT his or her freedom to discriminate when operating a business that serves the public.

The question becomes: should laws reflect the will of the majority?

Suppose you have a town where the majority of the residents are racists. Should the local laws and ordinances reflect that racism?

My point is, if Chick fil a is homophobic, then the population with either "A", not give a shit and keep eating their, or "B" they will boycott the place and they will go under. Either way, THE GENERAL POPULATION WILL GET WHAT THEY WANT.

It might take time, but if the population will not tolerate bigotry, then businesses will either adapt to that pressure or fail. If the population tolerates bigotry just fine, then IMO the laws and ordinances should reflect that.
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08-02-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 12:10 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 12:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  Where that gets you is de facto apartheid. Matt, do you have a concrete plan for what happens when businesses discriminate and don't go under? When in contrast, they flourish. When the business interests in a town are all owned by (for example) people of one ethnicity, all of whom like to discriminate? You say the free market will sort such situations out but we know historically that it doesn't, so what magic formula will you apply to human nature to make it happen *this time*?

What the fuck is wrong with laws to ensure that all people get treated fairly regardless of the stupid business owner's personal preference? You claim that we're riding roughshod over the poor business owners personal freedoms but the point is *a business is not personal*. It is NOT his or her freedom to discriminate when operating a business that serves the public.

The question becomes: should laws reflect the will of the majority?

Suppose you have a town where the majority of the residents are racists. Should the local laws and ordinances reflect that racism?

My point is, if Chick fil a is homophobic, then the population with either "A", not give a shit and keep eating their, or "B" they will boycott the place and they will go under. Either way, THE GENERAL POPULATION WILL GET WHAT THEY WANT.

It might take time, but if the population will not tolerate bigotry, then businesses will either adapt to that pressure or fail. If the population tolerates bigotry just fine, then IMO the laws and ordinances should reflect that.

Chick-Fil-A does not refuse to serve gays, atheists, blacks, or anyone else in their restaurants, so they are not pertinent to the discussion.

Discrimination against employees is a different subject.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2016, 01:00 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2016 01:04 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 11:54 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 01:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Many businesses are not allowed to discriminate in doing business, and that is not a matter of preference, so no, I can't agree that it's "just a matter of preference", myself.

Whether or not you like or dislike that particular law IS A MATTER OF PERSONAL PREFERENCE.


Perhaps you should read my entire post? The last paragraph, in particular, ADDRESSES THIS POINT of yours here.

Hey, I like that caps-lock shit. It makes me look erudite and mature.

(08-02-2016 01:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 05:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I'm just saying that laws are based on preference.

In that case, I prefer to have ALL MEMBERS OF SOCIETY TO HAVE EQUAL ACCESS TO SERVICES, in order to prevent the social disturbances which such systemic discrimination almost invariably brings about.

[Capslock added to increase maturity -- Thump]

Now stop pounding your keyboard and let's discuss this like adults, Matt. That includes reading an entire post before replying.
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08-02-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 12:10 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The question becomes: should laws reflect the will of the majority?

Suppose you have a town where the majority of the residents are racists. Should the local laws and ordinances reflect that racism?

My point is, if Chick fil a is homophobic, then the population with either "A", not give a shit and keep eating their, or "B" they will boycott the place and they will go under. Either way, THE GENERAL POPULATION WILL GET WHAT THEY WANT.

It might take time, but if the population will not tolerate bigotry, then businesses will either adapt to that pressure or fail. If the population tolerates bigotry just fine, then IMO the laws and ordinances should reflect that.

Chick-Fil-A does not refuse to serve gays, atheists, blacks, or anyone else in their restaurants, so they are not pertinent to the discussion.

Discrimination against employees is a different subject.

The point is that we all cast a vote every time we purchase something. If everyone boycotts a company, that company fails. In that sense, the people get what they want.

What about restaurant dress codes? Do you think restaurants be allowed to have dress codes that require formal wear for example? That would be discriminatory wouldn't it, since not everyone has the means/desire to acquire formal wear?

I think we just draw the line in a slightly different locations.
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08-02-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 01:00 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Perhaps you should read my entire post?

Come on now, ain't nobody got time for that! Tongue
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08-02-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
ob·tuse.

[əbˈt(y)o͞os, äbˈt(y)o͞os] ADJECTIVE

1.annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand:
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

synonyms: stupid · slow-witted · slow · dull-witted · unintelligent

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08-02-2016, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2016 01:12 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 12:10 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The question becomes: should laws reflect the will of the majority?

Suppose you have a town where the majority of the residents are racists. Should the local laws and ordinances reflect that racism?

Are you familiar with the Constitution? Here in America, it has this thing called the Equal Protection Clause.

Do you think the government should be in the business of bigotry? The entire point of the Bill of Rights, and the 14th Amendment, is to protect minorities against majorities.

So to answer your question, laws should reflect the will of the representatives of the people, until such time as those laws abrogate the rights of the people.

In other words, laws are subject to legislative vote. Rights are not. It's very simple.
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08-02-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 01:03 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 01:00 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Perhaps you should read my entire post?

Come on now, ain't nobody got time for that! Tongue

Yeah, I already figured out you were cutting corners mentally, thanks.
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