Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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08-02-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
If the American people were upset that Nike uses child labor/sweat shops to make their shoes, then they wouldn't buy them. Most Americans don't seem to give a shit.
If the American people were upset that a particular company won't sell to a particular group of people, then likewise they would boycott that company.

The will of the people will be revealed by the end result
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08-02-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 01:12 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If the American people were upset that Nike uses child labor/sweat shops to make their shoes, then they wouldn't buy them. Most Americans don't seem to give a shit.
If the American people were upset that a particular company won't sell to a particular group of people, then likewise they would boycott that company.

The will of the people will be revealed by the end result

You are full of inapt analogies. American laws do not control the Vietnamese labor market.
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08-02-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 01:12 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If the American people were upset that Nike uses child labor/sweat shops to make their shoes, then they wouldn't buy them. Most Americans don't seem to give a shit.
If the American people were upset that a particular company won't sell to a particular group of people, then likewise they would boycott that company.

The will of the people will be revealed by the end result

There is also these days quite a bit of evidence that boycott movements don't really work. They do not often have a result of harming or limiting the product/service from the boycotted company. It may end up like say chick-fil-aaa where in the future where they have a reputation by people that is dissatisfying but it didn't affect the stock or function of the groups.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-02-2016, 06:11 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2016 06:15 PM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
Some people look at polygamists and are disgusted.

Some people look at homosexuals and are disgusted.

Why are they disgusted by these things? Who knows... perhaps because they don't understand it, perhaps they are simply not used to it, maybe they were told that it is immoral, etc... But for whatever reason, they are disgusted by it.

In the US polygamy is illegal, and in some countries it is punishable with prison time. Here in the States, not only can you refuse service to polygamists, we went way further and told polygamists that they can't even stand on our soil. Why is no one fighting for the polygamists? Are people who think polygamy is icky correct, while people who think homosexuality is icky are mistaken? The reality is that we just pick and choose which sexual practices are to be accepted and which aren't, and it changes over time like the weather.

All I'm saying is to let people run their businesses the way they want to. If someone wants to open a club that is only for people 65 and over, so be it. If someone wants to open a club that's only for people who make over $200,000 per year, fine with me. If someone wants to open a club that's only for homosexual polygamist Asian Latin American hermaphrodites.... you get the point.

I just don't see any reason to force people to do business with people that they don't want to do business with. I see it as a loss of freedom. I don't have to like everybody, and it would be my preference if I wasn't forced to do business with everybody. I think people should be able to refuse to do business with anybody for any reason.
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08-02-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 06:11 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Some people look at polygamists and are disgusted.

Some people look at homosexuals and are disgusted.

Why are they disgusted by these things? Who knows... perhaps because they don't understand it, perhaps they are simply not used to it, maybe they were told that it is immoral, etc... But for whatever reason, they are disgusted by it.

In the US polygamy is illegal, and in some countries it is punishable with prison time. Here in the States, not only can you refuse service to polygamists, we went way further and told polygamists that they can't even stand on our soil. Why is no one fighting for the polygamists? Are people who think polygamy is icky correct, while people who think homosexuality is icky are mistaken? The reality is that we just pick and choose which sexual practices are to be accepted and which aren't, and it changes over time like the weather.

All I'm saying is to let people run their businesses the way they want to. If someone wants to open a club that is only for people 65 and over, so be it. If someone wants to open a club that's only for people who make over $200,000 per year, fine with me. If someone wants to open a club that's only for homosexual polygamist Asian Latin American hermaphrodites.... you get the point.

I just don't see any reason to force people to do business with people that they don't want to do business with. I see it as a loss of freedom. I don't have to like everybody, and it would be my preference if I wasn't forced to do business with everybody. I think people should be able to refuse to do business with anybody for any reason.

A club is not a business open to the public, so your examples fail to support your argument.

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08-02-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 06:11 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  All I'm saying is to let people run their businesses the way they want to. If someone wants to open a club that is only for people 65 and over, so be it. If someone wants to open a club that's only for people who make over $200,000 per year, fine with me. If someone wants to open a club that's only for homosexual polygamist Asian Latin American hermaphrodites.... you get the point.

There's no legal problem with private clubs. They just have to be able to demonstrate that they are private and not open to the public. The Moose Lodge made me ... well nevermind. Blush

#sigh
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08-02-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 06:11 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Some people look a polygamists and are disgusted.

Some people look at homosexuals and are disgusted.

Why are they disgusted by these things? Who knows... perhaps because they don't understand it, perhaps they are simply not used to it, maybe they were told that it is immoral, etc... But for whatever reason, they are disgusted by it.

In the US polygamy is illegal, and in some countries it is punishable with prison time. Here in the States, not only can you refuse service to polygamists, we went way further and told polygamists that they can't even stand on our soil. Why is no one fighting for the polygamists? Are people who think polygamy is icky correct, while people who think homosexuality is icky are mistaken? The reality is that we just pick and choose which sexual practices are to be accepted and which aren't, and it changes over time like the weather.

All I'm saying is to let people run their businesses the way they want to. If someone wants to open a club that is only for people 65 and over, so be it. If someone wants to open a club that's only for people who make over $200,000 per year, fine with me. If someone wants to open a club that's only for homosexual polygamist Asian Latin American hermaphrodites.... you get the point.

I just don't see any reason to force people to do business with people that they don't want to do business with. I see it as a loss of freedom. I don't have to like everybody, and it would be my preference if I wasn't forced to do business with everybody. I think people should be able to refuse to do business with anybody for any reason.

Actually the significant problem with polygamy is that it isn't a direct comparable in situations to legal scenarios... that's why it's not a good analogy to homosexual marriage and most understand it outside the Santorum crowd. What you mean by you can refuse service isn't sensible accurate or on point at all.. but if you're talking about why they're now treated legally different, that's a bigger story.

The legal scenarios of marriage, rights, divorce, wills, etc. are complex and add more parties to the fold in polygamous marriages.Then the bigger issue is when children are involved too, how do you handle the custody & protection rights in these cases.. that gets more complicated where homosexuality is still just 2 consenting adults. There's also some other issued comparable but all these concepts are still poor analogies because they're far from equal situations. Plus there is a strong beyond "yucky" reason for these dichotomies.

Because when you do let any business have this "freedom" it historically across boundaries has lead to directed and rampant discrimination. Doing that also leads to losses of freedom on wider scales. So you can "think' that but you're just moving the pole on what freedoms and "moral" values you are caring for on which degree. Your concept of freedom is lost either way but somehow you care about 1 side of it but not the other side of it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-02-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
Went to a bar last night to watch the Superbowl. This youngish guy sat down beside me and started offering to buy my drinks plus for my lady who was at my side. Then he started to talk about how gay the game of football is, how it tickles him inside whenever he sees two of those big guys with their arms around each other fall to the grass and roll around a bit. I had never thought of that aspect of it before! He invited us to his hotel room after the game, but we declined.
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08-02-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 06:23 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Because when you do let any business have this "freedom" it historically across boundaries has lead to directed and rampant discrimination. Doing that also leads to losses of freedom on wider scales. So you can "think' that but you're just moving the pole on what freedoms and "moral" values you are caring for on which degree. Your concept of freedom is lost either way but somehow you care about 1 side of it but not the other side of it.

And that argument defeats the argument for freedom to be a bigot.
When that door is closed, systemic discrimination becomes legally impossible.



And I'm still waiting for a definition of a "gay cake". Drinking Beverage

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08-02-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(08-02-2016 01:12 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If the American people were upset that Nike uses child labor/sweat shops to make their shoes, then they wouldn't buy them. Most Americans don't seem to give a shit.
If the American people were upset that a particular company won't sell to a particular group of people, then likewise they would boycott that company.

The will of the people will be revealed by the end result

Assumes a false symmetry: that the customer is as powerful as the provider. This is not true except in a (theoretical) small city with perfect markets and market information. Jim Crow and Jewish ghettos, among many other examples, demonstrate that it is not possible to equate the preference of the business owners with fair or just outcomes. Antidiscrimination regulations are an imperfect solution, but produce much better results, in terms of price and service fairness for all market segments, than laissez faire.
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