Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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09-02-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
Here in America, "clubs" can be and are profit-making ventures.

Here in Texas, for instance, bars/saloons/pubs (though we'd never use the latter term on pain of exile!) are forbidden to sell hard liquor. One may, however, purchase an annual membership to a club, which is permitted to sell liquor as well as beer and wine.

Your point still stands -- a cake club is not likely to be a money-maker ... unless we can somehow restrict the sale and baking of chocolate cake otherwise.
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09-02-2016, 10:38 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:13 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Sorry all, if I came across as being obtuse, it wasn't my intention, and I apologize.

In the end I feel good about this discussion, and I can accept that if certain businesses want to exclude certain groups of people, then we should force them to operate as a club, rather than a business that is open to the public. Makes sense to me, and it gives people back the freedom they desire, should they have the desire to exclude certain groups. Seems fair to me.

At the risk of being accused of further bullying, I don't think you have yet got the right of it.

Forming a club could be a legal 'out' for the bigot, but that is not actually the freedom that the bigot wants.
It has been the bigots' position that they want to operate businesses in any discriminatory manner they choose.

Why would you be accused of being a bully for a measured, civil response such as this? Don't play the victim Chas. It doesn't suit you.

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09-02-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:13 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Sorry all, if I came across as being obtuse, it wasn't my intention, and I apologize.

In the end I feel good about this discussion, and I can accept that if certain businesses want to exclude certain groups of people, then we should force them to operate as a club, rather than a business that is open to the public. Makes sense to me, and it gives people back the freedom they desire, should they have the desire to exclude certain groups. Seems fair to me.

At the risk of being accused of further bullying, I don't think you have yet got the right of it.

Forming a club could be a legal 'out' for the bigot, but that is not actually the freedom that the bigot wants.
It has been the bigots' position that they want to operate businesses in any discriminatory manner they choose.

Right, I'm just saying that I can agree with you if all you're asking is that the bigot redefine his business as a private club. Thumbsup
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09-02-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 12:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  At the risk of being accused of further bullying, I don't think you have yet got the right of it.

Forming a club could be a legal 'out' for the bigot, but that is not actually the freedom that the bigot wants.
It has been the bigots' position that they want to operate businesses in any discriminatory manner they choose.

Right, I'm just saying that I can agree with you if all you're asking is that the bigot redefine his business as a private club. Thumbsup

The redefinition requires revamping operating conditions which don't pertain to the case under discussion, is his point.
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09-02-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 01:14 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 12:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Right, I'm just saying that I can agree with you if all you're asking is that the bigot redefine his business as a private club. Thumbsup

The redefinition requires revamping operating conditions which don't pertain to the case under discussion, is his point.

Also, Chas never asked for such a redefinition. You (Matt) are putting words in his mouth. Scummy tactic.

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09-02-2016, 04:44 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 12:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Right, I'm just saying that I can agree with you if all you're asking is that the bigot redefine his business as a private club. Thumbsup

That is far easier said than done.

#sigh
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09-02-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 09:15 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I thought clubs could legally discriminate, even night clubs.

"Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Alexander Hunter wrote this week that Roy Den Hollander was not the victim of age and gender discrimination in 2010 when a bouncer at Amnesia nightclub told the 66-year-old to pay up, while letting a young lady in for free at the same time" http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/judg...-1.1415304

It's a business, not a club. Facepalm

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09-02-2016, 09:50 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2016 10:34 PM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 05:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 09:15 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I thought clubs could legally discriminate, even night clubs.

"Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Alexander Hunter wrote this week that Roy Den Hollander was not the victim of age and gender discrimination in 2010 when a bouncer at Amnesia nightclub told the 66-year-old to pay up, while letting a young lady in for free at the same time" http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/judg...-1.1415304

It's a business, not a club. Facepalm

Right, but I think it would be safe to say that your biggest complaint is that the baker hadn't legally defined his business as an exclusive club. If he had done that in advance (I know he didn't in real life), then you would be fine with him choosing whomever he wants to do business with, right? Again, I already realize that this isn't what happened in real life, I'm just kind of throwing out this hypothetical situation to perhaps give people a slightly different perspective on the matter.

If you respect the rights of people to form clubs, then you respect the right to discriminate. After all, the most important thing about exclusive clubs is what you're excluding. If you respect clubs, then you wholly support the baker's right to discriminate, you just think he did it the wrong way. That is, he made it look like he was operating a business open the public, but in reality, he was operating his bakery more like an exclusive club for hetero-only, and he didn't advertise as a club, and his business wasn't legally defined as a club. If you respect clubs, then you're not angry at the baker because he discriminated, you're angry at him for mislabeling his business. I think that there might be a little misdirected anger from some of the membership here. That's why I'm posting this.
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09-02-2016, 10:40 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 10:38 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  At the risk of being accused of further bullying, I don't think you have yet got the right of it.

Forming a club could be a legal 'out' for the bigot, but that is not actually the freedom that the bigot wants.
It has been the bigots' position that they want to operate businesses in any discriminatory manner they choose.

Why would you be accused of being a bully for a measured, civil response such as this? Don't play the victim Chas. It doesn't suit you.

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10-02-2016, 04:12 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(09-02-2016 09:50 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 05:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's a business, not a club. Facepalm

Right, but I think it would be safe to say that your biggest complaint is that the baker hadn't legally defined his business as an exclusive club. If he had done that in advance (I know he didn't in real life), then you would be fine with him choosing whomever he wants to do business with, right? Again, I already realize that this isn't what happened in real life, I'm just kind of throwing out this hypothetical situation to perhaps give people a slightly different perspective on the matter.

If you respect the rights of people to form clubs, then you respect the right to discriminate. After all, the most important thing about exclusive clubs is what you're excluding. If you respect clubs, then you wholly support the baker's right to discriminate, you just think he did it the wrong way. That is, he made it look like he was operating a business open the public, but in reality, he was operating his bakery more like an exclusive club for hetero-only, and he didn't advertise as a club, and his business wasn't legally defined as a club. If you respect clubs, then you're not angry at the baker because he discriminated, you're angry at him for mislabeling his business. I think that there might be a little misdirected anger from some of the membership here. That's why I'm posting this.

Only this makes sense if you just consider these entities only different via Name which isn't what the actual legal difference of an establishment of a public business and a private club is.

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