Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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06-02-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 10:47 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 07:20 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  But any working man who refuses to get paid is also kind of an idiot.

No one has ever forced someone to make a "gay cake". Not ever.

Now, if you're open for business you do have to serve all your customers regardless of who they are or what their religious, gender, sexual preference or any other differentiating aspect might be.

If a customer comes in and asks you to make a "gay cake" or any cake that you find the recipe or the decorations offensive and you have never used or made that for anyone else, then you have the right to decline the cake. You do not have to make a "Nazi cake", a "black panther cake" or even a "Shirley Temple cake". BUT... You do not have the right to decline the customer.

See how that works. Smile

When I was in business several times I turned down contracts because I didn't like the personality of the person wanting to do business with me. My business was far from baking, but yes one should have the option of refusing to do something they do not want to do. The customer can find another baker.
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06-02-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 05:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 04:26 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  No, it's illegal and when you open a business you contract with your city (a business license) to abide the laws and regulations for opening and operating a public business. If you don't follow the laws and regulations that you agreed to, you are breaking the contract and breaking the law.

Are you saying laws and contracts should have no meaning?

Ok.... But I'm saying that there is no right or wrong answer to the question of "should it be legal to refuse service for any reason?"

I'm just saying that laws are based on preference.

Laws are not based on "preference". They are based on what society deems fair or safe. In this case society deemed that any open for public business may not discriminate.

Again, they have a right to not serve any persons they want for whatever reason they want as long as it's not an open for public business. Privately, they can discriminate all they want 24/7.

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06-02-2016, 05:24 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 09:44 PM by Anjele.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
In the little town where we lived in SC there was a privately owned hardware store that also had a small sawmill attached. I went in there one day with my then ten year old son in hopes of not having to drive half an hour to a chain hardware store. Making small talk with the owner as I looked for the couple things I needed, he decided I needed to know that he didn't want or need money from n****rs. He proceeded in a racist rant as I shoved my son back out the door.

I put the items I had picked up on the counter and told him that he didn't need my money either.

Could I have made some sort of case out of it? Not where I was. But I could make sure our household didn't spend another dime there.

Refusing service to one group of people can result in the loss of business with other people.

The problem won't end unless others do the same thing and refuse to do business with bigots like that.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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06-02-2016, 05:27 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 05:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 04:26 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  No, it's illegal and when you open a business you contract with your city (a business license) to abide the laws and regulations for opening and operating a public business. If you don't follow the laws and regulations that you agreed to, you are breaking the contract and breaking the law.

Are you saying laws and contracts should have no meaning?

Ok.... But I'm saying that there is no right or wrong answer to the question of "should it be legal to refuse service for any reason?"

I'm just saying that laws are based on preference.

We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone. Now read that again slowly!
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06-02-2016, 05:29 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 04:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 03:43 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Agreed. Public places and facilities (post office, government buildings, parks, schools, etc.) no discrimination.

But regarding privately owned business, it would be my preference to allow them to choose who they do business with.

Should a woman (who runs a massage parlor) be forced to give a massage to the man convicted of raping her? (we'll assume the guy is paroled).

Let people choose. The market is equipped to work this kind of shit out.

When that was legal, it led to systemic discrimination. Your argument fails.

All I'm saying is that it is my preference to let business owners choose who they want to do business with. Sure, some people are going to get their feelings hurt, but freedom always comes with a price.

We live in country of free speech. That doesn't mean you have the right to not be offended. It's part of the trade off.

Chas, would you support a restaurant owner's right to refuse service to a homeless man due to body odor?
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06-02-2016, 05:33 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 05:23 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 05:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Ok.... But I'm saying that there is no right or wrong answer to the question of "should it be legal to refuse service for any reason?"

I'm just saying that laws are based on preference.

Laws are not based on "preference". They are based on what society deems fair or safe. In this case society deemed that any open for public business may not discriminate.

Again, they have a right to not serve any persons they want for whatever reason they want as long as it's not an open for public business. Privately, they can discriminate all they want 24/7.

Slavery used to be legal, marijuana is currently illegal (federally).

Do I even need to say anything else?
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06-02-2016, 05:36 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 05:27 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 05:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Ok.... But I'm saying that there is no right or wrong answer to the question of "should it be legal to refuse service for any reason?"

I'm just saying that laws are based on preference.

We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone. Now read that again slowly!

You can post that but it doesn't make it legal.

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06-02-2016, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 05:45 PM by Chas.)
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 05:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 04:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  When that was legal, it led to systemic discrimination. Your argument fails.

All I'm saying is that it is my preference to let business owners choose who they want to do business with. Sure, some people are going to get their feelings hurt, but freedom always comes with a price.

We live in country of free speech. That doesn't mean you have the right to not be offended. It's part of the trade off.

Chas, would you support a restaurant owner's right to refuse service to a homeless man due to body odor?

That is a poor comparison and a very weak argument. While a business has the right to ask someone who is disruptive to leave the premises, they do not - and should not - have the right to refuse service to someone who simply is some gender, race, religion, etc.

And the reason that it is - and should remain - illegal to do so is that it opens the door to systemic discrimination.
And systemic discrimination is far more damaging to a free society than a fucking bigots's butthurt.

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06-02-2016, 05:43 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 05:22 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 10:47 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  No one has ever forced someone to make a "gay cake". Not ever.

Now, if you're open for business you do have to serve all your customers regardless of who they are or what their religious, gender, sexual preference or any other differentiating aspect might be.

If a customer comes in and asks you to make a "gay cake" or any cake that you find the recipe or the decorations offensive and you have never used or made that for anyone else, then you have the right to decline the cake. You do not have to make a "Nazi cake", a "black panther cake" or even a "Shirley Temple cake". BUT... You do not have the right to decline the customer.

See how that works. Smile

When I was in business several times I turned down contracts because I didn't like the personality of the person wanting to do business with me. My business was far from baking, but yes one should have the option of refusing to do something they do not want to do. The customer can find another baker.

'Dislikeable personality' is not a protected class. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 07:34 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 07:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Do gay cakes taste like rainbows?

Consider

They do in England coz we use natural colours in our foods, and they are easier when they come with their own flavour

Taste the motherfucking rainbow
Define "natural".
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