Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
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06-02-2016, 11:43 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 10:03 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Gotcha. So he starts up on a rant even with no darker people around. No

A lot of bigots will do that *only* if there are no black / gay / whatever-their-bigotry-is people around. They look and see a white woman and think "She's safe, it's a small town, she must be as fucking racist as me, I'll vent". Happens to me quite often here.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-02-2016, 11:50 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 11:43 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 10:03 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Gotcha. So he starts up on a rant even with no darker people around. No

A lot of bigots will do that *only* if there are no black / gay / whatever-their-bigotry-is people around. They look and see a white woman and think "She's safe, it's a small town, she must be as fucking racist as me, I'll vent". Happens to me quite often here.

That's exactly what the situation was. I am white therefore I must hold the same prejudices he does.

I am sure he is also a Christian and figured I am too. Dodgy

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06-02-2016, 11:57 PM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 02:51 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:40 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I suggest that the sensible thing to do is to let business owners discriminate however they wish so long as they clearly advertise the fact before hand. In this case a big sign reading "We refuse to serve homosexuals." would have sufficed.

And having done that you will very shortly have bakers with a few more customers and unemployed bigots.

This is BY FAR the most sensible post I've read on this thread. Except I'm torn on the whole advertisement thing. Suppose I don't want to sell to white supremacist group KKK, do I really need to put up a sign stating that?

I would have no problem selling cakes to the KKK. I don't expect that I'd even be aware that they were KKK. If they wanted swastikas or something similarly objectionable I would simply point out my 'no obsenities' policy.

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07-02-2016, 12:01 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 02:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:40 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I suggest that the sensible thing to do is to let business owners discriminate however they wish so long as they clearly advertise the fact before hand. In this case a big sign reading "We refuse to serve homosexuals." would have sufficed.

And having done that you will very shortly have bakers with a few more customers and unemployed bigots.

That reminds me of the "No Colored" signs there used to be in the U.S.

In fact, it's exactly like that. Drinking Beverage

Yes. It is. Would you care to bet on how long a business with a sign like that would remain in business?

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07-02-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:01 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  That reminds me of the "No Colored" signs there used to be in the U.S.

In fact, it's exactly like that. Drinking Beverage

Yes. It is. Would you care to bet on how long a business with a sign like that would remain in business?

Well... a long time? If it was legal to do so. In towns where there is already distrust and dislike of gay / black / whoever? You think the public outcry in Podunk, Buttfuckistan would be sufficient? Or you think that (like with Chick-fil-a) the idiots would line up to defend their "free speech" and keep them well and truly in business?

Incidentally those who say "Oh it's fine, the gay guys can just go to another baker" - it's NOT fine. Even if there are other bakers, there's no guarantee that they'll charge a fair price. The anti-gay bakers are forcing a discriminatory situation onto the gay couple even if they are not the ones who sell them a cake.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-02-2016, 12:16 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(06-02-2016 02:46 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:40 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I suggest that the sensible thing to do is to let business owners discriminate however they wish so long as they clearly advertise the fact before hand. In this case a big sign reading "We refuse to serve homosexuals." would have sufficed.

And having done that you will very shortly have bakers with a few more customers and unemployed bigots.

I disagree. I suggest we keep the non-discrimination laws as they are and if you don't want to serve the public (everyone) don't have a business that is open to the public (everyone).

I can certainly understand where you're coming from. I find this sort of behavior utterly repugnant. I just don't think that forcing them to serve people who they'd sooner spit on is a solution. It drives them underground and makes them feel empowered because their rights (which ammendment gives you the right to act like a braying jack-ass again?) are being infringed, blah, blah, blah.

I prefer my fascists out in the open, where I can see them and every one of their customers who walks past that big, glaringly bigotted sign. I will be able to easily spot who they are and what they stand for.

A morality enforced by government is no morality at all.

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07-02-2016, 12:24 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:01 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  That reminds me of the "No Colored" signs there used to be in the U.S.

In fact, it's exactly like that. Drinking Beverage

Yes. It is. Would you care to bet on how long a business with a sign like that would remain in business?


Depends on what it is and where.


But we don't allow that because it's not as simple as many like to think. It would be great if the marketplace really was a level playing field where the best rose to the top, but it's laughably naive to think that's actually how things operate. We have examples of this in the very recent past, so I find it hard to understand how quickly and easily the lessons have been forgotten.


Take a small town, where whites make up the majority. They also probably make up the majority of business owners, and come out ahead in per capita earning too. Now if enough of these people share the same prejudices, they can wield massive social pressure. If every convenience store is owned by bigots, and they all refuse service to minorities? The Libertarian free-market wet dream answer is that the minorities will just open their own store, and the market prevails. Except what if they can't, because they can't get the business loans they need from the banks, who are similarly allowed to discriminate? Their freedom to refuse service can effectively be used as a blunt tool to force minorities out of communities where they are not wanted by the majority, creating de facto segregation and ghettoization. Now someone could choose not to discriminate, but in a culture that far gone, they'd open themselves up to having those same social pressures turned on them. Would the increased minority business be worth the social ostracism and potentially greater loss of business with the majority? Plus the other ancillary risks (remember, black and integrated churches were firebombed)?


That's why you don't negotiate with discrimination. Because the freedom not to be discriminated against is more valuable than the freedom to discriminate.

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07-02-2016, 12:45 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 12:01 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Yes. It is. Would you care to bet on how long a business with a sign like that would remain in business?

Well... a long time? If it was legal to do so. In towns where there is already distrust and dislike of gay / black / whoever? You think the public outcry in Podunk, Buttfuckistan would be sufficient? Or you think that (like with Chick-fil-a) the idiots would line up to defend their "free speech" and keep them well and truly in business?

Sadly, I cannot argue that you are wrong. I know that there are places like this. Happily few and far between but not few enough. But it would serve as effective warning to those of us who were sane to just keep on driving. I can't imagine that anybody who isn't a white supremacist would enjoy life in the Hillbilly hell you describe regardless of what the law says.

Quote:Incidentally those who say "Oh it's fine, the gay guys can just go to another baker" - it's NOT fine. Even if there are other bakers, there's no guarantee that they'll charge a fair price. The anti-gay bakers are forcing a discriminatory situation onto the gay couple even if they are not the ones who sell them a cake.

There's no guarantee that the first baker would charge a fair price and decent reason to believe that he wouldn't. Better that his customers are forewarned what sort of creature might be preparing their wedding cake.

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07-02-2016, 01:09 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:45 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 12:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  Well... a long time? If it was legal to do so. In towns where there is already distrust and dislike of gay / black / whoever? You think the public outcry in Podunk, Buttfuckistan would be sufficient? Or you think that (like with Chick-fil-a) the idiots would line up to defend their "free speech" and keep them well and truly in business?

Sadly, I cannot argue that you are wrong. I know that there are places like this. Happily few and far between but not few enough. But it would serve as effective warning to those of us who were sane to just keep on driving. I can't imagine that anybody who isn't a white supremacist would enjoy life in the Hillbilly hell you describe regardless of what the law says.


If only it was so small and quaint.


Look back to the civil rights movement, look at just how bad things could get below the Mason Dixie line, then remember just what a massive chunk of the US that was. Now also keep in mind that we still struggle with institutionalized racism just about everywhere, not just the deep south.


Even if it's not the blacks, then it will be someone else. Italians, Irish, Latinos, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, the LGBT community, and the list goes on.


But the times are changing, and whites are losing their numerical majority. Unfortunately the ignorant bigoted assholes see this as something that needs to be fought against as they try desperately to enshrine themselves within positions of power and authority before they lose it, rather than ensuring that everyone one is treated equally so that former minority groups don't enact poetic justice upon them.

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07-02-2016, 01:11 AM
RE: Forcing christian bakers to bake gay cakes is wrong
(07-02-2016 12:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-02-2016 12:01 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Yes. It is. Would you care to bet on how long a business with a sign like that would remain in business?


Depends on what it is and where.


But we don't allow that because it's not as simple as many like to think. It would be great if the marketplace really was a level playing field where the best rose to the top, but it's laughably naive to think that's actually how things operate.

Things are rarely as simple as anybody thinks and I'm not nearly naive enough to trust in the Allmighty Market.

Quote:We have examples of this in the very recent past, so I find it hard to understand how quickly and easily the lessons have been forgotten.

Actually, I was remembering some rather effective bouycots and similar civil disobedience arising from exactly this sort of problem.

Quote:Take a small town, where whites make up the majority. They also probably make up the majority of business owners, and come out ahead in per capita earning too. Now if enough of these people share the same prejudices, they can wield massive social pressure. If every convenience store is owned by bigots, and they all refuse service to minorities?

That's my cue to get the fuck out of Dodge. This town is obviously needs its gene pool chlorinated.

I know, that doesn't work for everybody.

You aren't wrong in what you're saying, but let's look at the flip side. You have a law that says that Zeke D. Klansmann can't refuse anybody service. But there are so very many ways to discriminate. Sorry, booked full up. Custom order so it'll cost you three times what it would if you were white. Substandard material, shoddy workmanship and no service if you don't kneeland pray to my imaginary friend. And gods help you if you wear a hoodie into my store because this is likely a stand-yur-ground state.

Quote:Their freedom to refuse service can effectively be used as a blunt tool to force minorities out of communities where they are not wanted by the majority, creating de facto segregation and ghettoization.

That just means the bigots have to get inventive and break out the less blunt tools. Nobody ever gave them cedit for smarts but when it comes to treating their fellow citizens like dirt they've demonstrated a talent that the rest of us lack.

Quote:Plus the other ancillary risks (remember, black and integrated churches were firebombed)?

What's this past tense for? There have been racially-motivated atacks on churches in the last year or so.

Quote:That's why you don't negotiate with discrimination. Because the freedom not to be discriminated against is more valuable than the freedom to discriminate.

I'm not negotiating. I'm saying that you can't enact equality and you can't legislate people better. It's been nigh on half a century since Martin Luther King Jr and look where we are on that count.

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