Formaldehyde in Vaccines
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08-03-2014, 07:24 PM
Formaldehyde in Vaccines
Right now I am trying to research vaccine ingredients and I am a bit stuck on formaldehyde. I already know what it is used for in the production of vaccines, but now I am attempting to find possible dangers from it. I understand that according to the CDC the amounts of formalin in vaccines are so miniscule compared to the amount naturally found in our body, however when I see lists of side effects I notice there is not a category for injection. I've found side effects for inhalation, ingestion, skin contact, etc. but not injection. I keep reading that they have not actually done studies to know how safe injecting formaldehyde actually is. I was wanting to know if that is true, and if anyone can provide a source to show that. If not, I would also like to know if injection is even any worse/different than inhalation or ingestion.
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08-03-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
Not that I know much about the subject... But I thought they'd stopped putting that sort of thing in ages ago?

It is/was used as a preservative fro the reagents, right?

*Sits back and waits for some one to come along and hence learn stuff*

Also, HELLO! (^_^)
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08-03-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
Bad for young kids and pregnant women, may cause deformation, should be less than 50 micrograms / ml in inactivated influenza vaccine according to China Pharmacopeia (2010) , which I think is safe to most.

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08-03-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
(08-03-2014 08:39 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Not that I know much about the subject... But I thought they'd stopped putting that sort of thing in ages ago?

It is/was used as a preservative fro the reagents, right?

*Sits back and waits for some one to come along and hence learn stuff*

Also, HELLO! (^_^)

No, most vaccines do still have formaldehyde/formalin in them. This includes Dtap, Hep A, hep B, vaccines for polio, meningitis, and the flu. I am pretty sure that's it. According to the CDC it is used to inactivate the virus so it won't cause the disease and it is also used to prevent contamination during production. They also say that most of what is found in the vaccine is just residual quantities. You might be thinking of thimerosal (mercury). They phased that out of pretty much all of the childhood vaccines a while ago, but it's still in some vaccines that come in multi-dose virals, the flu shot for example.
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09-03-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
(08-03-2014 07:24 PM)Punk Pumpkin Wrote:  Right now I am trying to research vaccine ingredients and I am a bit stuck on formaldehyde. I already know what it is used for in the production of vaccines, but now I am attempting to find possible dangers from it. I understand that according to the CDC the amounts of formalin in vaccines are so miniscule compared to the amount naturally found in our body, however when I see lists of side effects I notice there is not a category for injection. I've found side effects for inhalation, ingestion, skin contact, etc. but not injection. I keep reading that they have not actually done studies to know how safe injecting formaldehyde actually is. I was wanting to know if that is true, and if anyone can provide a source to show that. If not, I would also like to know if injection is even any worse/different than inhalation or ingestion.

PP, here's a link to a site you may already be aware of. It won't answer all of your questions (no site ever does), but it might be a useful start.

http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04...ients.html

As you are aware, formaldehyde is something we encounter every day. If you buy a new blanket and it comes wrapped in plastic, when you peel the plastic off, you'll get a good whiff of formaldehyde (try blankets from China. The formaldehyde on some of those will clear your nostrils and peel the paint off your walls). Has anyone measured how big the whiff is? I'm almost certain no-one has. So, we don't know whether it's higher than you would receive in a vaccine. Likewise with car exhaust. Someone who has to sit for hours in heavy traffic will absorb considerably more formaldehyde than someone who commutes along the bank of a sweet, flowing river.

I hope you find this useful.
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09-03-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
I work within this area as a pharmacist.

The amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is negligible and harmless.

The above link is reliable: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04...ients.html
...and demystifies the misuse of formaldehyde as a scare tactic by anti-vaccine conspirators.

I read a book recently "what doctors don't tell you The Truth About the Dangers of Modern Medicine" by Lynne McTaggart and was astonished at the sheer garbage in the book. [this is a hard core anti-vaccine journalist - full of pseudoscience]
I also has a friend who sent me anti-vaccine pamphlets with information like "vaccines contain potassium Chloride which can cause cardiac arrhythmia (irregular heart beat) and metabolic problems etc." The sheer rubbish here is staggering - consider I work in an area were we make baby intravenous nutrition with potassium given at orders of magnitude higher to save babies lives - the amount in a vaccine is negligible to the extreme. (yes potassium chloride is also used for the death penalty in the drug cocktail....and a little more than the babies get.) Similarly MMR contains neomycin which the pamphlet claimed causes renal and hepatic toxicity. Yep - neomycin certainly can when used as an intravenous antibiotic with VASTLY larger doses - however the amount in a vaccine is utterly insignificant even for neonates. (if I recall it is x1000 more neomycin given EVERY DAY when used to treat infections - the quantity may be tens of thousands of times higher to cause toxicity)

Most ingredients in vaccines are probably of little concern in the sense that its a risk benefit calculation. There are risks of allergies, most are local and reversible and extremely rarely more serious risks (very rarely there have been seizures and high temperature which have caused harm)
Remember - babies can be allergic or harmed by food's and some have peculiar allergies to almost anything (I know a doctor allergic to a wavelength of sunlight light - no kidding ! )

Vaccines such as MMR no longer contain Thiomersal (organomercury compound ethyl-mercury) as a preservative. Whilst Thiomersal can be controversial it is not as alarmist as the hard-core anti-vaccine people will have you believe. Its a complex topic because the original autism claim by Andrew Wakefield has been utterly debunked to the grave (the general medicine council court case had him confess fraud, conflict of interest, bad trial design, unethical practices for running research - a huge list of problems and was stripped of his medical license to practice..)
However I personally am not completely convinced there is completely no harm because ethyl-mercury does have a long half life and the dose is not completely insignificant (unlike neomycin in MMR) Thiomersal is also given via I/M route unlike mercury from eating tuna. Technically there is roughly a similar amount of mercury in a can of tuna to the vaccine but the comparison is not accurate for babies (who don't eat cans of tuna and have different metabolism and elimination + higher peak concentration of mercury than eating tuna)
There have been many studies which do not show a direct link with autism, but I was alarmed at some malpractice revealed from one of the largest studies ever undertaken (the "Danish" study of half a million MMR vaccinated children) which showed autism to continue to INCREASE after vaccines were thiomersal free, Looks like some of the data was fudged and one of the trial leads had conflict of interest and embezzlement from the CDC - quite dodgy !!!
Why if CDC was so convinced there is no mercuty-autism link they wouldn't take more care ? I'm not happy about this. Of course anti-vaccine people cheered with "Hey I told you its a conspiracy by the government & pharmaceutical companies"
We know mercury is toxic in all its forms even though ethylmercury is safer than methylmercury or pure mercury metal but technically the lower limit is still unknown and humans don't need it in any quantity.

Hope this helps.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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09-03-2014, 10:32 PM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
(09-03-2014 01:47 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I work within this area as a pharmacist.

The amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is negligible and harmless.

The above link is reliable: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04...ients.html
...and demystifies the misuse of formaldehyde as a scare tactic by anti-vaccine conspirators.

I read a book recently "what doctors don't tell you The Truth About the Dangers of Modern Medicine" by Lynne McTaggart and was astonished at the sheer garbage in the book. [this is a hard core anti-vaccine journalist - full of pseudoscience]
I also has a friend who sent me anti-vaccine pamphlets with information like "vaccines contain potassium Chloride which can cause cardiac arrhythmia (irregular heart beat) and metabolic problems etc." The sheer rubbish here is staggering - consider I work in an area were we make baby intravenous nutrition with potassium given at orders of magnitude higher to save babies lives - the amount in a vaccine is negligible to the extreme. (yes potassium chloride is also used for the death penalty in the drug cocktail....and a little more than the babies get.) Similarly MMR contains neomycin which the pamphlet claimed causes renal and hepatic toxicity. Yep - neomycin certainly can when used as an intravenous antibiotic with VASTLY larger doses - however the amount in a vaccine is utterly insignificant even for neonates. (if I recall it is x1000 more neomycin given EVERY DAY when used to treat infections - the quantity may be tens of thousands of times higher to cause toxicity)

Most ingredients in vaccines are probably of little concern in the sense that its a risk benefit calculation. There are risks of allergies, most are local and reversible and extremely rarely more serious risks (very rarely there have been seizures and high temperature which have caused harm)
Remember - babies can be allergic or harmed by food's and some have peculiar allergies to almost anything (I know a doctor allergic to a wavelength of sunlight light - no kidding ! )

Vaccines such as MMR no longer contain Thiomersal (organomercury compound ethyl-mercury) as a preservative. Whilst Thiomersal can be controversial it is not as alarmist as the hard-core anti-vaccine people will have you believe. Its a complex topic because the original autism claim by Andrew Wakefield has been utterly debunked to the grave (the general medicine council court case had him confess fraud, conflict of interest, bad trial design, unethical practices for running research - a huge list of problems and was stripped of his medical license to practice..)
However I personally am not completely convinced there is completely no harm because ethyl-mercury does have a long half life and the dose is not completely insignificant (unlike neomycin in MMR) Thiomersal is also given via I/M route unlike mercury from eating tuna. Technically there is roughly a similar amount of mercury in a can of tuna to the vaccine but the comparison is not accurate for babies (who don't eat cans of tuna and have different metabolism and elimination + higher peak concentration of mercury than eating tuna)
There have been many studies which do not show a direct link with autism, but I was alarmed at some malpractice revealed from one of the largest studies ever undertaken (the "Danish" study of half a million MMR vaccinated children) which showed autism to continue to INCREASE after vaccines were thiomersal free, Looks like some of the data was fudged and one of the trial leads had conflict of interest and embezzlement from the CDC - quite dodgy !!!
Why if CDC was so convinced there is no mercuty-autism link they wouldn't take more care ? I'm not happy about this. Of course anti-vaccine people cheered with "Hey I told you its a conspiracy by the government & pharmaceutical companies"
We know mercury is toxic in all its forms even though ethylmercury is safer than methylmercury or pure mercury metal but technically the lower limit is still unknown and humans don't need it in any quantity.

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much for this detailed response! It does help a lot. So with the thiomersal, would you say that it would maybe be best to avoid that? From the research I have done the only vaccines that contain it are the MCV4 and influenza...and I am not sure how necessary those are to get. I did read that the Td has trace amounts, but that's kind of one you can't go without. I am a little partial the the MCV4 one though because I have had viral meningitis before and it was the worst pain I have felt in my entire life so far.
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11-03-2014, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 05:19 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
(09-03-2014 10:32 PM)Punk Pumpkin Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 01:47 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I work within this area as a pharmacist.

The amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is negligible and harmless.

The above link is reliable: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04...ients.html
...and demystifies the misuse of formaldehyde as a scare tactic by anti-vaccine conspirators.

I read a book recently "what doctors don't tell you The Truth About the Dangers of Modern Medicine" by Lynne McTaggart and was astonished at the sheer garbage in the book. [this is a hard core anti-vaccine journalist - full of pseudoscience]
I also has a friend who sent me anti-vaccine pamphlets with information like "vaccines contain potassium Chloride which can cause cardiac arrhythmia (irregular heart beat) and metabolic problems etc." The sheer rubbish here is staggering - consider I work in an area were we make baby intravenous nutrition with potassium given at orders of magnitude higher to save babies lives - the amount in a vaccine is negligible to the extreme. (yes potassium chloride is also used for the death penalty in the drug cocktail....and a little more than the babies get.) Similarly MMR contains neomycin which the pamphlet claimed causes renal and hepatic toxicity. Yep - neomycin certainly can when used as an intravenous antibiotic with VASTLY larger doses - however the amount in a vaccine is utterly insignificant even for neonates. (if I recall it is x1000 more neomycin given EVERY DAY when used to treat infections - the quantity may be tens of thousands of times higher to cause toxicity)

Most ingredients in vaccines are probably of little concern in the sense that its a risk benefit calculation. There are risks of allergies, most are local and reversible and extremely rarely more serious risks (very rarely there have been seizures and high temperature which have caused harm)
Remember - babies can be allergic or harmed by food's and some have peculiar allergies to almost anything (I know a doctor allergic to a wavelength of sunlight light - no kidding ! )

Vaccines such as MMR no longer contain Thiomersal (organomercury compound ethyl-mercury) as a preservative. Whilst Thiomersal can be controversial it is not as alarmist as the hard-core anti-vaccine people will have you believe. Its a complex topic because the original autism claim by Andrew Wakefield has been utterly debunked to the grave (the general medicine council court case had him confess fraud, conflict of interest, bad trial design, unethical practices for running research - a huge list of problems and was stripped of his medical license to practice..)
However I personally am not completely convinced there is completely no harm because ethyl-mercury does have a long half life and the dose is not completely insignificant (unlike neomycin in MMR) Thiomersal is also given via I/M route unlike mercury from eating tuna. Technically there is roughly a similar amount of mercury in a can of tuna to the vaccine but the comparison is not accurate for babies (who don't eat cans of tuna and have different metabolism and elimination + higher peak concentration of mercury than eating tuna)
There have been many studies which do not show a direct link with autism, but I was alarmed at some malpractice revealed from one of the largest studies ever undertaken (the "Danish" study of half a million MMR vaccinated children) which showed autism to continue to INCREASE after vaccines were thiomersal free, Looks like some of the data was fudged and one of the trial leads had conflict of interest and embezzlement from the CDC - quite dodgy !!!
Why if CDC was so convinced there is no mercuty-autism link they wouldn't take more care ? I'm not happy about this. Of course anti-vaccine people cheered with "Hey I told you its a conspiracy by the government & pharmaceutical companies"
We know mercury is toxic in all its forms even though ethylmercury is safer than methylmercury or pure mercury metal but technically the lower limit is still unknown and humans don't need it in any quantity.

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much for this detailed response! It does help a lot. So with the thiomersal, would you say that it would maybe be best to avoid that? From the research I have done the only vaccines that contain it are the MCV4 and influenza...and I am not sure how necessary those are to get. I did read that the Td has trace amounts, but that's kind of one you can't go without. I am a little partial the the MCV4 one though because I have had viral meningitis before and it was the worst pain I have felt in my entire life so far.

My personal opinion is to avoid thiomersal in babies and young children.
I spent a very long time researching this topic and began swaying to each side of the debate - and getting exhausted from this.
There may not be clear evidence that thiomersal causes autism or neurological damage at the quantities involved, many studies dont show a link - however it is far from clear that it is safe and some susceptible individuals can be harmed, some very seriously.
My opinion is that the CDC, NHS, FDA, EPA etc...various governing bodies think the overall harm of not having vaccines outweighs and is worth the risk of a few individuals who may be seriously harmed during the days when thiomersal was common (or even from other ingredients).
The governing bodies responsibility is 'overall' public health on mass - to millions and they may justify vaccines on utilitarian grounds as "the benefit of the many" even at the price of a few harmed. Some of the damage done by lets say thiomersal may also be subtle and difficult to detect (eg learning disabilities) compared to an easy to detect pathogen such as polio.

Personally I am suspicious of thiomersal especially for babies and small children because mercury in all its forms is highly toxic even at low doses. It is true that the thiomersal doses are very low - but measuring neurological damage even at low mercury concentrations is very difficult - its not like there is a simple test which measures the toxicity which can be subtle.

What i DESPISE and utterly hate by anti-vaccine pseudoscience lobbies and conspiracy theories is when they start whining about all the vaccine ingredients as being toxic - because this utterly discredits them and when they do have something important to say they are ignored as stupid and ignorant.
However there are exceptions - and I think thiomersal falls under this category.

Eg a anti-vaccine spokesperson may say "vaccines contain neomycin, potassium Chloride, thiomersal and fomaldehyde" - all extremely toxic & hazardous poisons.
When all these are lumped together it sounds persuasive, however even basic medicine will show that putting potassium chloride on that list is utterly stupid.
Likewise foraldehyde quantities are tiny and produced by our own metabolism in larger quantities and neomycin is in extremely miniscule amounts.

There is a huge difference with neomycin and thiomersal for example. Neomycin is potentially toxic at therapeutic doses as an antibiotic given DAILY at 1000x the dose in a vaccine to children. Overdose of neomycin is definitely toxic - mostly causing renal and hepatic damage etc.
However THERE IS NO THERAPEUTIC USE OF THIOMERSAL. IT IS DEFINITELY TOXIC at higher doses - for sure.

The second factor - and VERY important is that thiomersal has a long half life - it hangs around for a long time in the body. Whilst accumulation is unlikely and it is metabolized by humans quicker than methylmercury is is still much slower than many other drugs - especially for babies.

The next question is what about adults receiving thiomersal from vaccines.
It is often quoted the 25mcg thiomersal in a vaccine is similar to eating a can of tuna. However the comparison is not entirely fair because injected thiomersal has a higher peak blood plasma level than eating tuna. Can it be the case that during the peak concentration there can be neurological damage ? Because plasma levels from eating fish rise much more slowly the metabolism of the mercury also begins to remove the mercury - and as long as one is not eating the tuna in large quantities every day it is unlikely to lead to toxic levels.

Saying that we are screwing up the environment by pumping large amounts of mercury from coal plants and other industrial sources - do we know the full scale of this harm ? It is definitely a bad idea because mercury is nasty and toxic even at very low doses when exposed on a daily basis.

ALso - the mercury in fish cannot be compared to childhood vaccines. Babies dont eat whole cans of tuna !

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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11-03-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
Eg
The half life of neomycin is 2 - 3 hours

The half life of ethylmercury is 18 days IN ADULTS (and babies may have impaired metabolism due to undeveloped hepatic system)

I dont like the idea of injecting one of the most toxic substances on earth - even in small amounts with such a long half life.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-03-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Formaldehyde in Vaccines
(11-03-2014 05:26 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg
The half life of neomycin is 2 - 3 hours

The half life of ethylmercury is 18 days IN ADULTS (and babies may have impaired metabolism due to undeveloped hepatic system)

I dont like the idea of injecting one of the most toxic substances on earth - even in small amounts with such a long half life.

Based on your opinion, the flu shot would be pretty easy to avoid. Most people I meet, even pro-vaccers don't think that one is necessary. However, isn't the thimerosal only in the multi-dose vaccines? Would it be difficult to ask for the vaccine in a single dose vial? The MCV4 is the one that troubles me, again because of my personal experience with meningitis. However, the MCV4 is not recommended until 11-12 years old. 7-10 if they are in a high risk category. Would you think that would be old enough to be able to "handle" any thimerosal intake? I also read somewhere that ethylmercury is extremely diluted compared to methylmercury and is expelled from the body the same day as the vaccination. I do not remember the source and do not know if that is true. I will definitely be doing much more research on this subject.
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