Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
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03-02-2015, 03:03 PM
Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Ever since I became an atheist a year ago (convert from Christianity), I've come to accept the truth of science and have a strong hatred now for pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. (I was anti-vax a couple years ago, but that's mostly because I just believed the propaganda and didn't have much scientific knowledge.) But, hear my heart, as a person wanting to have children: I'm having a hard time between understanding the strong evidence pro-vaccines...but at the same time struggling with stories of people I actually know who've become anti-vaccine due to severe reactions with their kids or whatever. I know that's anecdotal evidence, but they're people I personally know...and I don't know how to account for what happened to their kids in my understanding of the very good safety of vaccines. I've been trying to read as much as possible about the issues, so any help and insight and other resources you could provide would be helpful. If there are some good resources debunking every issue anti-vaxers raise, that'd be great. I also have in-laws who are anti-vaxers, so I hear the propaganda...all...the...time. Facepalm

I understand the chances are far more likely that a non-vaccinated person would get a disease, than that they would suffer from some adverse reaction. I understand herd immunity is extremely important. I understand these diseases can be debilitating and deadly. I understand many studies have been done, and none link vaccines to autism or anything...I mean, there's a reason the whole medical establishment is behind vaccines.

But I also know at least 4 families who swear up and down that their kids became severely developmentally delayed after receiving a vaccine...2 families have two autistic boys. I also understand vaccines list some pretty scary rare side effects, but so do a lot of medical things. How should I understand the error in thinking vaccines is what caused these developmental delays for these people who swear it happened after the vaccine? Consider

So please understand I'm simply wanting to understand. As an individual wanting to be a parent someday, I want to do what's right for my kid(s) as does any parent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but do believe in the legitimacy and benefit of science and medicine. So please no bashing, no making fun of, whatever...I'd just appreciate some straight-forward, calm, level-headed responses. Thank you! Smile
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03-02-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
This all started because of some moron publishing a "study" which showed that preservatives in vaccines cause autism -- and this "study" later was retracted after being shown to be faulty science.....

But, some people continue to believe it -- simply cuz they can't give up on a good conspiracy theory........

.......................................

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03-02-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 03:03 PM)Learner Wrote:  Ever since I became an atheist a year ago (convert from Christianity), I've come to accept the truth of science and have a strong hatred now for pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. (I was anti-vax a couple years ago, but that's mostly because I just believed the propaganda and didn't have much scientific knowledge.) But, hear my heart, as a person wanting to have children: I'm having a hard time between understanding the strong evidence pro-vaccines...but at the same time struggling with stories of people I actually know who've become anti-vaccine due to severe reactions with their kids or whatever. I know that's anecdotal evidence, but they're people I personally know...and I don't know how to account for what happened to their kids in my understanding of the very good safety of vaccines. I've been trying to read as much as possible about the issues, so any help and insight and other resources you could provide would be helpful. If there are some good resources debunking every issue anti-vaxers raise, that'd be great. I also have in-laws who are anti-vaxers, so I hear the propaganda...all...the...time. Facepalm

I understand the chances are far more likely that a non-vaccinated person would get a disease, than that they would suffer from some adverse reaction. I understand herd immunity is extremely important. I understand these diseases can be debilitating and deadly. I understand many studies have been done, and none link vaccines to autism or anything...I mean, there's a reason the whole medical establishment is behind vaccines.

It's good that you see that.

Quote:But I also know at least 4 families who swear up and down that their kids became severely developmentally delayed after receiving a vaccine...2 families have two autistic boys. I also understand vaccines list some pretty scary rare side effects, but so do a lot of medical things. How should I understand the error in thinking vaccines is what caused these developmental delays for these people who swear it happened after the vaccine? Consider

I'm sure it did happen after the vaccine, but there is no evidence to indicate it was because of the vaccine. It also happened after they introduced new foods into the child's diet.

Quote:So please understand I'm simply wanting to understand. As an individual wanting to be a parent someday, I want to do what's right for my kid(s) as does any parent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but do believe in the legitimacy and benefit of science and medicine. So please no bashing, no making fun of, whatever...I'd just appreciate some straight-forward, calm, level-headed responses. Thank you! Smile

Consider that far more children are developmentally challenged than suffer known adverse reactions to vaccines.

Since the majority of children do get vaccinated, there will be ones who would be developmentally challenged regardless.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
So... the differences are.. Four groups who all 'swear' they know what they are talking about. Though that's all they have "We know this because of 'teh feels'!"

While science has the hundred odd years of constant testing, reviewing, research, investigation 'Work' and records of vaccines and using them.

IN ANY medical procedure, there are always risks.

=> http://roosterteeth.com/home.php

There's a link to some one's page who's passed away at the tender age of 33 while they were having a minor operation due to an allergic reaction to anesthetic (I think).

So... on a harsh level, ask those who don't want vaccinations, GMO's etc to stop using a computer! Because the plastics in the keyboard will make them all 'Teh crazy'! Tongue

See how that sort of thing goes down.

Sorry for the ramble. Im sure some one who actually knows their stuff about this stuff will be along shortly to actually answer your question. Blush

Much cheers to all.
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03-02-2015, 03:15 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2015 03:37 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Here you go:

7 Biggest Lies Spread by the Anti-Vaccine Movement, Debunked by Science

It's becoming dangerous now because these idiots have not vaccinated for things like measles and it spreads through the population. Guess who some of these antivaxxers are?

Kenneth Copeland, Texas Televangelist, Under Scrutiny After Measles Outbreak

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-02-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
"But I also know at least 4 families who swear up and down that their kids became severely developmentally delayed after receiving a vaccine...2 families have two autistic boys. I also understand vaccines list some pretty scary rare side effects, but so do a lot of medical things. How should I understand the error in thinking vaccines is what caused these developmental delays for these people who swear it happened after the vaccine? Consider

So please understand I'm simply wanting to understand. As an individual wanting to be a parent someday, I want to do what's right for my kid(s) as does any parent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but do believe in the legitimacy and benefit of science and medicine. So please no bashing, no making fun of, whatever...I'd just appreciate some straight-forward, calm, level-headed responses. Thank you! Smile"



There is no link between vaccines and autism or delays in development. It is a convenient occurrence for people to try and link them but the reality is that signs of delayed development typically occur early on, around the time of vaccinations. Correlation is not causation.


The anti-vaccine movement is largely based around a single publication by Andrew Wakefield. It was published in the Lancet, then redacted by the Lancet when no one else could replicate the findings. Then it was discovered that Wakefield and the participants in the study all stood to financially benefit from the study if it found a link between the vaccines and autism. It wasn't just a bad or flawed study, it was flat out disingenuous and made-up.

Since then, not only have no other studies found a link, but anti-vaxxers have tried to claim that mercury in the vaccines is the reason for autism. Except (as far as I am aware) there is no link between mercury and autism. And the mercury was bound to a preservative called Thimerosol (which was removed from most vaccines just in case), so it wasn't bio-available to be methylated into the harmful version of mercury. Think of it like this, sodium is deadly. Chlorine is deadly. Sodium chloride is delicious on french fires (table salt).

It is true that there are periods of rapid increases in diagnosis rates of things like autism, and if you track them down you will find that they correlate to changes in the DSM that is used for diagnosing autism (each time the definition changed to be more inclusive, so more people qualified as autistic than would have the year before).

Another point they try and make (my in-laws are anti-vaxxers and my wife was too until I told her to research it in more detail) is that if the vaccines work, then why do their kids have to be vaccinated? It isn't just herd immunity, it is also because some people can't be vaccinated. Newborns can't be vaccinated and even though they can be protected through breastmilk, not all newborns can breastfeed. Vaccines are not (and have never claimed to be) 100% effective, so one jackasses decision not to vaccinate opens up a pathway for the disease to spread.



Here is how it went for my wife. She wanted to either not vaccinate or delay vaccinations. I told her if she could find any credible research or researchers to back it up, I'd go along with it. She spent months searching and could only find homeopathic BS and doctors promoting their "alternative medicine." Or to put it another way, there are a lot of people out there who claim that the pharmaceutical companies only make the vaccines to make money, so don't give big pharma your money, give it to the homeopathers and "natural doctors" and "alternative medicine." It is the biggest crock of hypocritical bullshit that exists, aside from religion!

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03-02-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
This guy does a good job of explaining it




Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-02-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 03:03 PM)Learner Wrote:  Ever since I became an atheist a year ago (convert from Christianity), I've come to accept the truth of science and have a strong hatred now for pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. (I was anti-vax a couple years ago, but that's mostly because I just believed the propaganda and didn't have much scientific knowledge.) But, hear my heart, as a person wanting to have children: I'm having a hard time between understanding the strong evidence pro-vaccines...but at the same time struggling with stories of people I actually know who've become anti-vaccine due to severe reactions with their kids or whatever. I know that's anecdotal evidence, but they're people I personally know...and I don't know how to account for what happened to their kids in my understanding of the very good safety of vaccines. I've been trying to read as much as possible about the issues, so any help and insight and other resources you could provide would be helpful. If there are some good resources debunking every issue anti-vaxers raise, that'd be great. I also have in-laws who are anti-vaxers, so I hear the propaganda...all...the...time. Facepalm

I understand the chances are far more likely that a non-vaccinated person would get a disease, than that they would suffer from some adverse reaction. I understand herd immunity is extremely important. I understand these diseases can be debilitating and deadly. I understand many studies have been done, and none link vaccines to autism or anything...I mean, there's a reason the whole medical establishment is behind vaccines.

But I also know at least 4 families who swear up and down that their kids became severely developmentally delayed after receiving a vaccine...2 families have two autistic boys. I also understand vaccines list some pretty scary rare side effects, but so do a lot of medical things. How should I understand the error in thinking vaccines is what caused these developmental delays for these people who swear it happened after the vaccine? Consider

So please understand I'm simply wanting to understand. As an individual wanting to be a parent someday, I want to do what's right for my kid(s) as does any parent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but do believe in the legitimacy and benefit of science and medicine. So please no bashing, no making fun of, whatever...I'd just appreciate some straight-forward, calm, level-headed responses. Thank you! Smile

The people you know who say they have had bad reactions from vaccines likely cannot say for sure that the vaccine caused the problems their kids have developed. Autism prevalence can be higher in some families--the chance of a child having autism is higher when an older sibling has it. This suggests genetics might have some role to play. Autism tends to first be recognized about the age at which the kids first start getting vaccinated. Proximity in time does not prove causation--otherwise we might say that vaccines help children learn to talk, help children learn to crawl/walk, change the texture of their hair, or other unfounded claims.
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03-02-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Correlation does not imply causation

Says the mom with a son on the spectrum.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-02-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 03:03 PM)Learner Wrote:  Ever since I became an atheist a year ago (convert from Christianity), I've come to accept the truth of science and have a strong hatred now for pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. (I was anti-vax a couple years ago, but that's mostly because I just believed the propaganda and didn't have much scientific knowledge.) But, hear my heart, as a person wanting to have children: I'm having a hard time between understanding the strong evidence pro-vaccines...but at the same time struggling with stories of people I actually know who've become anti-vaccine due to severe reactions with their kids or whatever. I know that's anecdotal evidence, but they're people I personally know...and I don't know how to account for what happened to their kids in my understanding of the very good safety of vaccines. I've been trying to read as much as possible about the issues, so any help and insight and other resources you could provide would be helpful. If there are some good resources debunking every issue anti-vaxers raise, that'd be great. I also have in-laws who are anti-vaxers, so I hear the propaganda...all...the...time. Facepalm

I understand the chances are far more likely that a non-vaccinated person would get a disease, than that they would suffer from some adverse reaction. I understand herd immunity is extremely important. I understand these diseases can be debilitating and deadly. I understand many studies have been done, and none link vaccines to autism or anything...I mean, there's a reason the whole medical establishment is behind vaccines.

But I also know at least 4 families who swear up and down that their kids became severely developmentally delayed after receiving a vaccine...2 families have two autistic boys. I also understand vaccines list some pretty scary rare side effects, but so do a lot of medical things. How should I understand the error in thinking vaccines is what caused these developmental delays for these people who swear it happened after the vaccine? Consider

So please understand I'm simply wanting to understand. As an individual wanting to be a parent someday, I want to do what's right for my kid(s) as does any parent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but do believe in the legitimacy and benefit of science and medicine. So please no bashing, no making fun of, whatever...I'd just appreciate some straight-forward, calm, level-headed responses. Thank you! Smile

There has been a total of one study which claimed to have found a link between the development of autism and vaccination.

This study was taken down shortly after publication due to it's extremely erroneous nature; it had been done poorly to say the least.
No legitimate, rigorous study has ever found a link between developmental disabilities and vaccination.

Anybody who claims there is a link is either wilfully misinformed, incredibly ignorant or criminally negligent.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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