Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
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03-02-2015, 05:29 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 05:22 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Anybody who claims there is a link is either wilfully misinformed, incredibly ignorant or criminally negligent.

Or they believe the Big Pharma Conspiracy - they are suppressing the research and targeted Wakefield. Dodgy

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03-02-2015, 05:46 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Our extended family have both, children on the autism spectrum and we have had one of the kids catch whopping cough before they were old enough to get immunized.

If scary stories from individuals is what is going to sway you, watching my neice and the other babies in the ward struggle to breathe and one of the othe bubs actually die, is much more scarry than ANY risk the vaccines might have.

All these diseases can, have, and will kill. Not often, but they do. The death of your child is far more traumatic than any side effect that has been suggested by the anti vax people.
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03-02-2015, 06:05 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 05:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 05:22 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Anybody who claims there is a link is either wilfully misinformed, incredibly ignorant or criminally negligent.

Or they believe the Big Pharma Conspiracy - they are suppressing the research and targeted Wakefield. Dodgy

See: All of the above.

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04-02-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:But I also know at least 4 families who swear up and down that their kids became severely developmentally delayed after receiving a vaccine...2 families have two autistic boys. I also understand vaccines list some pretty scary rare side effects, but so do a lot of medical things. How should I understand the error in thinking vaccines is what caused these developmental delays for these people who swear it happened after the vaccine? Consider

I'm sure it did happen after the vaccine, but there is no evidence to indicate it was because of the vaccine. It also happened after they introduced new foods into the child's diet.

(03-02-2015 03:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is no link between vaccines and autism or delays in development. It is a convenient occurrence for people to try and link them but the reality is that signs of delayed development typically occur early on, around the time of vaccinations. Correlation is not causation.

I understand what you are getting at, and I agree correlation is not causation. But the key is that at least 2 of the families I know would say the kid was perfectly fine up until the MMR...in terms of their development, etc...but the very day after the MMR, their kid was never the same. It's not like these families had their kid get the vaccination, and then 3 months later the kid shows increasingly clearer symptoms of developmental delay as the kid actually just did all along...these people swear it was a night-and-day difference at the time of the vaccination.

I also know pro-vaccination people who say they always could see the symptoms of developmental delay all along.

I don't know, it's a confusing mess in my head. I know these moms are "experts" on their own kids...for me to just come along and think, "Yeah, you say that about your kid, but that's not how it really happened. Didn't you see developmental delays all along?" (And, for the record, I'm speaking as one with a younger brother who has autism.)

So my purpose in this post is to try to reconcile the science I understand...and on the other hand, to have somewhat of an idea what happened in the lives of these families I know and understand how it wasn't related to the vaccination. I mean, the fact that 2 families have more than one kid with autism shows there's very likely a genetic aspect to autism. But when people claim the night-and-day change before and after the vaccination, I'm not sure what to think about that as I know these people aren't idiots or weren't completely unaware of their child's development.

Thanks for bearing with me and patiently explaining. I have a bunch of anti-vax friends and family, so I've got a lot of study and relearning to do.
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04-02-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 05:46 PM)saki Wrote:  Our extended family have both, children on the autism spectrum and we have had one of the kids catch whopping cough before they were old enough to get immunized.

If scary stories from individuals is what is going to sway you, watching my neice and the other babies in the ward struggle to breathe and one of the othe bubs actually die, is much more scarry than ANY risk the vaccines might have.

All these diseases can, have, and will kill. Not often, but they do. The death of your child is far more traumatic than any side effect that has been suggested by the anti vax people.

Excellent point
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04-02-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 03:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here is how it went for my wife. She wanted to either not vaccinate or delay vaccinations. I told her if she could find any credible research or researchers to back it up, I'd go along with it. She spent months searching and could only find homeopathic BS and doctors promoting their "alternative medicine." Or to put it another way, there are a lot of people out there who claim that the pharmaceutical companies only make the vaccines to make money, so don't give big pharma your money, give it to the homeopathers and "natural doctors" and "alternative medicine." It is the biggest crock of hypocritical bullshit that exists, aside from religion!

Thank you for your thoughts and the personal story. Very helpful to hear.
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04-02-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
First have a quick read about Andrew Wakefield. But make sure you haven't eaten recently.

For a very fast education on vaccination take a walk through one of the older cemeteries in your neighborhood. Those little tombstones next to the bigger ones with single-digit ages are all the argument that any sane parent should need.

The "link" between vaccines and vaccines and autism and other developmental delays is a simple one too. Vaccines, including the MMR shots, are typically given around the 12 to 15 month age. This is also the time when a child is sufficiently developed that autism and other delays become apparent. There's no link between the two but it's difficult to simply accept that their child has been affected by some completely random factor. People want the cold comfort of being able to blame something so they latch onto the vaccination that their child received recently. Your friends' children already had developmental delays, they only discovered them after the vaccinations.

Herd immunity is fairly easy too. Vaccines aren't 100%. They confer resistance, not immunity. Expose a vaccinated individual to a pathogen enough and they will become infected. Herd immunity works by making it difficult for a pathogen to spread within a vaccinated population. There was a recent outbreak of measles in California amongst unvaccinated individuals. A few vaccinated people caught it from them. Fewer yet caught it from them. And that's where it ended.

Herd immunity is something that will be vital for somebody in your unenviable position to keep in mind. Your friends' unvaccinated children pose a huge risk to your children. They're a vector for disease just waiting to happen. This is especially true when your children are too young to have had their shots yet and are defenseless. Anti-vaccers don't just risk themselves and their children. They risk the lives of everybody around them.

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04-02-2015, 07:23 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 07:19 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  First have a quick read about Andrew Wakefield. But make sure you haven't eaten recently.

For a very fast education on vaccination take a walk through one of the older cemeteries in your neighborhood. Those little tombstones next to the bigger ones with single-digit ages are all the argument that any sane parent should need.

The "link" between vaccines and vaccines and autism and other developmental delays is a simple one too. Vaccines, including the MMR shots, are typically given around the 12 to 15 month age. This is also the time when a child is sufficiently developed that autism and other delays become apparent. There's no link between the two but it's difficult to simply accept that their child has been affected by some completely random factor. People want the cold comfort of being able to blame something so they latch onto the vaccination that their child received recently. Your friends' children already had developmental delays, they only discovered them after the vaccinations.

Herd immunity is fairly easy too. Vaccines aren't 100%. They confer resistance, not immunity. Expose a vaccinated individual to a pathogen enough and they will become infected. Herd immunity works by making it difficult for a pathogen to spread within a vaccinated population. There was a recent outbreak of measles in California amongst unvaccinated individuals. A few vaccinated people caught it from them. Fewer yet caught it from them. And that's where it ended.

Herd immunity is something that will be vital for somebody in your unenviable position to keep in mind. Your friends' unvaccinated children pose a huge risk to your children. They're a vector for disease just waiting to happen. This is especially true when your children are too young to have had their shots yet and are defenseless. Anti-vaccers don't just risk themselves and their children. They risk the lives of everybody around them.

Paleophyte, thank you for your input. I think your description of when autism or developmental delays become apparent makes a lot of sense. Granted, I've not been the parent of a child with autism...but maybe some kids never really show clear symptoms at all until around the 12-15 month age range. So, yeah, it does make sense that any parent would want something to be able to blame something.

That's an awesome quote you have in your signature line at the bottom! Where's that quote from?
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04-02-2015, 07:28 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Here's an excellent critique of the Bob Sears book about vaccinations (the delayed schedule):
http://www.immunize.org/concerns/offit_moser2009.pdf
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04-02-2015, 07:31 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 07:23 AM)Learner Wrote:  Paleophyte, thank you for your input. I think your description of when autism or developmental delays become apparent makes a lot of sense. Granted, I've not been the parent of a child with autism...but maybe some kids never really show clear symptoms at all until around the 12-15 month age range. So, yeah, it does make sense that any parent would want something to be able to blame something.

That's an awesome quote you have in your signature line at the bottom! Where's that quote from?

Thanks. Anything I can do to help.

I put my signature together myself, though some of the inspiration came from this video:




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