Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
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04-02-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 07:02 AM)Learner Wrote:  I understand what you are getting at, and I agree correlation is not causation. But the key is that at least 2 of the families I know would say the kid was perfectly fine up until the MMR...in terms of their development, etc...but the very day after the MMR, their kid was never the same. It's not like these families had their kid get the vaccination, and then 3 months later the kid shows increasingly clearer symptoms of developmental delay as the kid actually just did all along...these people swear it was a night-and-day difference at the time of the vaccination.

So they say. People's memories are not accurate. How long after the vaccine did they first make this comment?

Did they call the doctor the day after the vaccine? The week after the vaccine? Months after the vaccine?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(03-02-2015 03:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This guy does a good job of explaining it




This is a great video summing up a lot of the studies that have been done. He also brought up a good point that parents are going to be even more aware of any symptoms or anything after shots, so that's why they might be better picking up on developmental delays that were already beginning to manifest themselves around this age.

Excellent destruction of the Wakefield crap, too. Wow.
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04-02-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
That is a big point, parents either don't look for developmental delays, don't know what to look for, or are in denial about the delays that are there.

So someone takes their kid to get their shots, in the weeks and months that follow they begin to notice that the child is not as far along as he/she should be, they assume the correlation with the timing of the shots has something to do with it.

The simple fact is that there is nothing in the shots that could cause autism. Autism is also a spectrum of disorders that most likely has a very strong genetic influence (it tends to be hereditary for sure, implying genetics). Nothing genetic is going to be influenced by the introduction of a shot that activates the immune system.


Basically, the anti-vaxxer movement comes down to one of a couple of issues:

1) Conservatives who don't want the government involved in their lives (another point for another day on this rubbish)

2) Libertarians who want the choice (except this choice doesn't only effect the people not vaccinating. Not vaccinating is akin to driving with their headlights off at night and them saying "but if you have your headlights on then you should be okay" while failing to realize that we share the same space and no matter how cautious I am, they can still fuck me and my children up by being ignorant and arrogant about their driving skills.)

3) Religion, where people believe that their god protects them.

4) The super-hippy movement where people seek out "natural" methods for curing disease. These people really frustrate me. Firstly, we are a part of nature, so what we do isn't unnatural by default, we have learned to take advantage of nature to our advantage. And secondly, vaccinations are activating our immune systems, our natural innate immune systems.

5) The conspiracy theorists who think big pharma is just out to make money off of them. Any company is out to make money, choosing some sort of self-righteous idea that you're not going to give pharmaceutical companies your money is pretty stupid. These people either acknowledge that the diseases are real, and they don't want to shell out the dough, or they think big pharma is making fake vaccines. Either way, they are morons. We have seen the positive effects of vaccinations, for instance, we don't have to vaccinate against smallpox because vaccines all but eliminated it. We could eliminate polio and measles and mumps and rubella and the whooping cough, if people would just get their goddamn vaccines.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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04-02-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 07:31 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(04-02-2015 07:23 AM)Learner Wrote:  Paleophyte, thank you for your input. I think your description of when autism or developmental delays become apparent makes a lot of sense. Granted, I've not been the parent of a child with autism...but maybe some kids never really show clear symptoms at all until around the 12-15 month age range. So, yeah, it does make sense that any parent would want something to be able to blame something.

That's an awesome quote you have in your signature line at the bottom! Where's that quote from?

Thanks. Anything I can do to help.

I put my signature together myself, though some of the inspiration came from this video:




Paleophyte, that movie is AWESOME. Very inspiring. Thank you for sharing.
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04-02-2015, 09:47 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 09:10 AM)Learner Wrote:  Paleophyte, that movie is AWESOME. Very inspiring. Thank you for sharing.

Any time. It was shamelessly stolen from the "Elegant Nature of Science" thread over in the science forum. Lots more where that one came from, though that one is one of my favorites.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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04-02-2015, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2015 10:23 AM by Mr. Boston.)
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
To me the debate shouldn't be about whether any specific vaccine is the best option for any specific child, but rather whether the practice of vaccination is the best option for the species. To me it's undeniably the best option. Will there be some children who have adverse reactions to some vaccines? Sure. Will there be some children who shouldn't be vaccinated for legitimate medical concerns specific to them as individuals? Sure. Should the whole concept be trashed over these individual cases? Absolutely not.

Of course, if you want to take a cold hardline Darwinian view, it's easy to see that the greatest problem humanity will face in the coming years and decades will be over population and the fights over resources that go with it. To play devil's advocate, maybe the best thing for our species' long-term survival would be a few generations of greatly increased infant and child mortality. Still there are far more humane ways to curb population growth than letting children die from measles and polio.
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04-02-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 07:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2015 07:02 AM)Learner Wrote:  I understand what you are getting at, and I agree correlation is not causation. But the key is that at least 2 of the families I know would say the kid was perfectly fine up until the MMR...in terms of their development, etc...but the very day after the MMR, their kid was never the same. It's not like these families had their kid get the vaccination, and then 3 months later the kid shows increasingly clearer symptoms of developmental delay as the kid actually just did all along...these people swear it was a night-and-day difference at the time of the vaccination.

So they say. People's memories are not accurate. How long after the vaccine did they first make this comment?

Did they call the doctor the day after the vaccine? The week after the vaccine? Months after the vaccine?

Oh this times a thousand.

If I had gotten one of my kids vaccinated and the VERY NEXT day showed signs of developmental delay....Damn straight I would have called the doctor.

Especially with autism. It can be completely subtle. Even in a 10 minute well check...doctors can miss the signs. Once they're older the signs become more glaringly obvious.

What's really funny??? It's usually around the age of three that children with high functioning autism, you begin to notice signs. The single largest sign is their temperament/frustration level, and how they interact (or rather don't) with peers.

With some kids you don't really see it until they're 4 or even 5 and school begins. That's when the questions start coming up...when did you notice this or that...The common answer becomes "I guess around three or so."


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-02-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
I just wish anti-vaxxers would actually be consistent.

If they don't vaccinate because of, ya know, big pharma, then they should reject ALL medications, including antibiotics, blood pressure medication, anti-rejection meds, Viagra, birth control, etc.,.... because, ya know, big pharma.

If they don't vaccinate due to all of the scary "toxins" (because they don't understand basic chemistry), then they shouldn't accept chemo for their cancer. Cuz ya know, chemo is pretty toxic. They should reject everything with those particular toxins in them. Including apples, pears, and many of their "herbal remedies".

But they aren't consistent. And it confuses the hell outta me.

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04-02-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(04-02-2015 12:53 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I just wish anti-vaxxers would actually be consistent.

If they don't vaccinate because of, ya know, big pharma, then they should reject ALL medications, including antibiotics, blood pressure medication, anti-rejection meds, Viagra, birth control, etc.,.... because, ya know, big pharma.

If they don't vaccinate due to all of the scary "toxins" (because they don't understand basic chemistry), then they shouldn't accept chemo for their cancer. Cuz ya know, chemo is pretty toxic. They should reject everything with those particular toxins in them. Including apples, pears, and many of their "herbal remedies".

But they aren't consistent. And it confuses the hell outta me.

I kinda love it and hate it when they go all "b...but chemicals!!"-level retarded, because they clearly don't know what a chemical is.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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04-02-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
The best book I ever read on this subject is called The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin. It's a very detailed account of the history of vaccines, the beginnings of the austic connection, the trials, the snake oil salesmen cashing in on desperate parents and much, much more. It's a great book.


http://www.amazon.com/The-Panic-Virus-Va...1439158657

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