Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
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06-02-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(06-02-2015 01:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-02-2015 09:49 AM)Punk Pumpkin Wrote:  I am not a parent, but I imagine that when I am I will be a bit nervous. I would be a little nervous if I went to go get vaccinated. Logical or not, it's true. I used to be an anti-vaxxer, so that fear kind of lingers in my brain even though I know that it's bullshit.

So, they've combined their conspiracy over chemtrails into vaccines?

Who knew stupid ideas were so infectious? They are so infectious they are actually spreading to other conspiracies. That is like having a virus jump from plants to animals.

The problem seems to be the susceptibility of the person to nonsense. They provide an environment for the memes to cross-pollinate and mutate.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2015, 01:34 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(06-02-2015 01:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2015 01:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, they've combined their conspiracy over chemtrails into vaccines?

Who knew stupid ideas were so infectious? They are so infectious they are actually spreading to other conspiracies. That is like having a virus jump from plants to animals.

The problem seems to be the susceptibility of the person to nonsense. They provide an environment for the memes to cross-pollinate and mutate.

Stupidity is a rapidly mutating disease. And our vaccine against it isn't strong enough when too many people don't pay attention in class and funding for it is too scarce.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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06-02-2015, 01:42 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(06-02-2015 01:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-02-2015 01:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  The problem seems to be the susceptibility of the person to nonsense. They provide an environment for the memes to cross-pollinate and mutate.

Stupidity is a rapidly mutating disease. And our vaccine against it isn't strong enough when too many people don't pay attention in class and funding for it is too scarce.

You make an infectious argument. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Hello Lerner!

I read your post and have a fantastic textbook on the basis of Immunology and Modern medicine. The Janeway textbook titled "Immunobiology" covers IN DETAIL from basic molecular function to largescale epidemiological inplications of not only what vaccines are, but how they function! Each and every statement is cited to direct peer reviewed literature and you are welcome to check each one through each publication. If you are considering children and are unsure, it is in my opinion the BEST source for an in depth understanding of what will happen and why every person should be vaccinated. What I will finish this out is the very basics of what vaccines are and how they function.

Vaccines , today, are non infectious components of targeted organism. That means that they "attenuate" the organism (make it non infectious) and add to it what is known as an adjuvant. This is essentially what the vaccine is. A nonharmful organism component with an adjuvant (a chemical that ideally is immunogenic that does not cause harm but invokes an immune response). The reason that this is done, is to provoke your body's immune system to see that organism. To skip the large complexities of inflammation, cytokines, Macrophages and many of the other intricacies involved in what immunization is, by injecting the vaccine into your body, you are training the body to "see" that organism. The adjuvant helps your body to "see" that organism. Over the course of the next few days, your body treats that organism as if it were alive and infectious (when really, it isnt) whih is the whole point. You are "training" your immune system to "see" THAT organism. Sometimes you feel sick or dome general malaise because of YOU making memory B cells to INSTANTLY respond to THAT organism ( measles, mumps, varicella zoster and so on). People feel slight discomfort due to their own immune system, but the vaccine itself CAN NOT cause autism, it can only PREVENT disease states. Austism has been largely linked (by which the evidence is compelling but not necessarily conclusive) to be a genetic (approximately 11 genes) and epigeneticly (several methylation states and HdAC concentrations) controlled mechanism.

If you are looking for some good sources with a TON of citations and replicated works, I suggest checking PNAS, PLoS genetics, PLoS, NATURE, SCIENCE and cross check with what some of the medical literature has to say, particularly the CDC and the NIH. Google searches may not be suffiecient in this case. More over, I would HIGHLY recommend getting in touch with an immunologist at an accredited university! You would be surprised what a phone call can reveal. Most inportantly, don't accept blindly what you are told. Keep doing research and find the picture that the evidence paints for you, ask questions and ask more questions!

Cheers, and all the best
Pat
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06-02-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Please forgive typos, I wrote this on a mobile device!

Pat
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08-02-2015, 02:09 AM
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
On a side note...

This Anti-vaxxer children’s book is getting destroyed in Amazon troll campaign


Way to go internet, way to go.


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08-02-2015, 12:55 PM
Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
(08-02-2015 02:09 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  On a side note...

This Anti-vaxxer children’s book is getting destroyed in Amazon troll campaign


Way to go internet, way to go.


[Image: 1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif]

I was just about to post this link to the Amazon page for the paperback version:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1466938897?vs=1

But you've beat me to the topic. I put my review in by highlighting some of the other titles in the series and other books by the publisher. Like:

Rachel's Radical Rubella

Tom's Terrific Tuberculosis

Peg's Pretty Polio

Willie's Wonderful Whooping cough

Jim Crow and the erosion of white America. We swear we're not nazis, but that doesn't mean Hitler wasn't right!

White skin, brown skin, blue skin, Redskins. It ain't racist because it's football

Rebuilding America through child labor.

Barn birthing, because if it was good enough for Jesus then it's good enough for your little angel.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-02-2015, 02:24 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 02:31 PM by gofish!.)
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Weird...sorry, for some reason my posts won't show...sorry for this duplicate post

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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08-02-2015, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 02:32 PM by gofish!.)
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Hmm..it appears I accidentally mistyped the quote characters, which must have "escaped" something....

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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08-02-2015, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 02:30 PM by gofish!.)
RE: Former anti-vax: Need help understanding issues about vaccines
Hmm...

(04-02-2015 09:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That is a big point, parents either don't look for developmental delays, don't know what to look for, or are in denial about the delays that are there.

So someone takes their kid to get their shots, in the weeks and months that follow they begin to notice that the child is not as far along as he/she should be, they assume the correlation with the timing of the shots has something to do with it.
Well, that sounds like you're talking about my wife and I so let me say how it went down for us.

Exactly like that. We actually did have close correlation between our son's MMR and onset of Apraxia (our first clue in what was a long trail to discovery of his Asperger's syndrome). That fact that we were living in Manhattan and had one of the best pediatricians on the Upper East Side had no effect on the fear we both felt. This all happened around the time Wakefield was prominent, but not fully exposed.

Thankfully, it was detailed research and the weight of available evidence that convinced us and I'm thankful we had the ability to overcome our fear and our natural "fight" reflex, which had us metaphorically hunting for the guilty party so we could exact revenge.

The love one feels for one's child is a powerful force. I recall being in a hospital when our baby was vomiting and badly dehydrated and the nurse was having problems finding a vein. I had to remove myself from A&E as I was in real danger of punching that nurse's lights out (even though there is no way he ever would have deserved it).

(04-02-2015 09:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The simple fact is that there is nothing in the shots that could cause autism. Autism is also a spectrum of disorders that most likely has a very strong genetic influence (it tends to be hereditary for sure, implying genetics). Nothing genetic is going to be influenced by the introduction of a shot that activates the immune system.
Agreed. Indeed, to this day, I suspect I'm undiagnosed, as discssed on other threads. Smile

(04-02-2015 09:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Basically, the anti-vaxxer movement comes down to one of a couple of issues:

1) Conservatives who don't want the government involved in their lives (another point for another day on this rubbish)

2) Libertarians who want the choice (except this choice doesn't only effect the people not vaccinating. Not vaccinating is akin to driving with their headlights off at night and them saying "but if you have your headlights on then you should be okay" while failing to realize that we share the same space and no matter how cautious I am, they can still fuck me and my children up by being ignorant and arrogant about their driving skills.)

3) Religion, where people believe that their god protects them.

4) The super-hippy movement where people seek out "natural" methods for curing disease. These people really frustrate me. Firstly, we are a part of nature, so what we do isn't unnatural by default, we have learned to take advantage of nature to our advantage. And secondly, vaccinations are activating our immune systems, our natural innate immune systems.

5) The conspiracy theorists who think big pharma is just out to make money off of them. Any company is out to make money, choosing some sort of self-righteous idea that you're not going to give pharmaceutical companies your money is pretty stupid. These people either acknowledge that the diseases are real, and they don't want to shell out the dough, or they think big pharma is making fake vaccines. Either way, they are morons. We have seen the positive effects of vaccinations, for instance, we don't have to vaccinate against smallpox because vaccines all but eliminated it. We could eliminate polio and measles and mumps and rubella and the whooping cough, if people would just get their goddamn vaccines.

They are all as one for me - various assorted nutjobs who want to peddle their world-view on the back of real people's fear, agony and suffering.

They're all cunts.

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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