Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
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16-11-2013, 08:46 PM
Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(16-11-2013 08:16 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(16-11-2013 07:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is not defined as a chemical weapon in the Geneva Convention - which is the subject of the thread.

According to the U.S. white phosphorous is a chemical weapon. Please provide an argument against the U.S. findings.

And no, the topic of the thread is Geneva Conventions section 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Gene...erritories

I provided that specific link in the first post.

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Technically speaking it's an incendiary device with toxic effects. It can be used as a chemical weapon if used improperly (which it seems to have been on occasion). It can also have lethal toxic effects on personnel. But it's original design was incendiary. It was originally designed to burn things and make smoke. Bit can be used to burn just about anything. Mustard gas, on the other hand, was only designed to harm people.

This makes enforcing chemical weapons sanctions on WP tricky.

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16-11-2013, 09:00 PM
Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(16-11-2013 08:46 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(16-11-2013 08:16 PM)I and I Wrote:  According to the U.S. white phosphorous is a chemical weapon. Please provide an argument against the U.S. findings.

And no, the topic of the thread is Geneva Conventions section 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Gene...erritories

I provided that specific link in the first post.

Next Drinking Beverage

Technically speaking it's an incendiary device with toxic effects. It can be used as a chemical weapon if used improperly (which it seems to have been on occasion). It can also have lethal toxic effects on personnel. But it's original design was incendiary. It was originally designed to burn things and make smoke. Bit can be used to burn just about anything. Mustard gas, on the other hand, was only designed to harm people.

This makes enforcing chemical weapons sanctions on WP tricky.

Purposely dropping any device like that on a civilian populated area is a war crime.

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16-11-2013, 09:03 PM
Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
Oh and btw, when white phosphorous is dropped from planes, it is only intended as a weapon. If you use it as a smoke screen you need to ignite it at close quarters from the position you are in to disguise troop movement.

Which would be stupid to do considering your own troops will be affected by the white phosphorous, hence it most likely never is intended for merely a smoke screen.
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16-11-2013, 09:17 PM
RE: Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(16-11-2013 09:03 PM)I and I Wrote:  Oh and btw, when white phosphorous is dropped from planes, it is only intended as a weapon. If you use it as a smoke screen you need to ignite it at close quarters from the position you are in to disguise troop movement.

Which would be stupid to do considering your own troops will be affected by the white phosphorous, hence it most likely never is intended for merely a smoke screen.

It is, in fact, the basis for smoke grenades.
Quote:Another type of smoke grenade is the bursting variation. These are filled with white phosphorus (WP), which is spread by explosive action. White phosphorus catches fire in the presence of air, and burns with a brilliant yellow flame, while producing copious amounts of white smoke (phosphorus pentoxide). These double as incendiary grenades, and a variant of these are also launched from infantry-portable or armored fighting vehicle-mounted grenade launchers. Users must also be wary of wind direction when using smoke grenades.

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16-11-2013, 09:19 PM
Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(16-11-2013 09:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-11-2013 09:03 PM)I and I Wrote:  Oh and btw, when white phosphorous is dropped from planes, it is only intended as a weapon. If you use it as a smoke screen you need to ignite it at close quarters from the position you are in to disguise troop movement.

Which would be stupid to do considering your own troops will be affected by the white phosphorous, hence it most likely never is intended for merely a smoke screen.

It is, in fact, the basis for smoke grenades.
Quote:Another type of smoke grenade is the bursting variation. These are filled with white phosphorus (WP), which is spread by explosive action. White phosphorus catches fire in the presence of air, and burns with a brilliant yellow flame, while producing copious amounts of white smoke (phosphorus pentoxide). These double as incendiary grenades, and a variant of these are also launched from infantry-portable or armored fighting vehicle-mounted grenade launchers. Users must also be wary of wind direction when using smoke grenades.

"The basis". What does that mean? That they share some chemical make up? What does this have to do with the price of tea in china?
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17-11-2013, 01:15 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2013 10:12 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(16-11-2013 09:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is, in fact, the basis for smoke grenades....

WARNING: PIC IS NSFW

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Jeez, Chas. Look at what this does to people! You're seriously defending this, and trying to refute I and I's condemnation of this? Do you have any sense of morality or compassion? How would you like it if that was you in the photo, and I and I came to your defense, arguing how cruel it was to inflict such suffering on you, and condemning the people who did this to you. And then I came along, arguing that I and I was full of shit and that WP isn't all that bad, and it has legitimate uses, so we can't condemn whoever did that to you. Would you like that if _YOU_ were the victim?

I guess the idea of putting yourself in other people's shoes and showing empathy is just so foreign to you.
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17-11-2013, 04:05 AM
Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
WP is only one type of smoke grenade. Because of how dangerous they are and the fact that they are still basically an incendiary device they are used with great care. The smoke that results from them is quite toxic. Guessing here, but I would bet users of WP grenades either use them as distant smoke screens (a smoke screen doesn't have to cover the squad guys, it's usually placed somewhere between the squad or unit and the suspected enemy position or point of vulnerability) or in conjunction with chemical protection gear.

The less toxic variety of smoke grenade doesn't use WP but rather potassium chlorate, lactose and a colored dye. Those are used for things like marking an LZ or creating a safe smoke screen.

Hexachloroethane has also been used as a smoke generating compound. I'm reading here that it's toxic through skin absorption.

All this aside, the real problem with the use of WP lately seems to be that it's being used very carelessly by the IDF and other armed forces in situations where enemy combatants are co-located with civilians. This is considered a violation of Geneva Conventions.

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17-11-2013, 04:19 AM
RE: Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(16-11-2013 09:19 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(16-11-2013 09:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is, in fact, the basis for smoke grenades.

"The basis". What does that mean? That they share some chemical make up? What does this have to do with the price of tea in china?

It is used in smoke grenades. Your statement that it would be stupid to do so is idiotic.

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17-11-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(17-11-2013 04:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-11-2013 09:19 PM)I and I Wrote:  "The basis". What does that mean? That they share some chemical make up? What does this have to do with the price of tea in china?

It is used in smoke grenades. Your statement that it would be stupid to do so is idiotic.

Cool. Like I said, white phosphorous that is dropped from fighter jets isn't used a smoke screen and the usage of it as was used by Israel is a chemical weapon.

Even the government of Israel is trying to limit it's use, from pressure from israeli law makers and activists.
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17-11-2013, 09:05 AM
RE: Forth Geneva Conventions Section 3
(17-11-2013 08:38 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(17-11-2013 04:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is used in smoke grenades. Your statement that it would be stupid to do so is idiotic.

Cool. Like I said, white phosphorous that is dropped from fighter jets isn't used a smoke screen and the usage of it as was used by Israel is a chemical weapon.

Even the government of Israel is trying to limit it's use, from pressure from israeli law makers and activists.

Hey guess what I&I? I have some bad for news for you..
As it turns out, you're a fucking cunt.

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