Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
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16-01-2012, 11:15 AM
Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
Okay so this is probably not the right place to post these kinds of things - but i need help with this little argument going on with a friend on facebook...

(Me)
Quote:So you believe that the bible is the one true word of god - that Noah was able to travel across the entire earth, through every single little crack and collect 2 of each species currently existing without them dying in the whole process? Eight Bronze-Age humans over 500-years-old built a watercraft the size of a football stadium with only felled trees and pitch? Dinosaurs on the ark. Did they exit the boat and THEN get hit by a comet? How do you explain the acquisition and loading of animals not indigenous to the Middle East (many separated by oceans), like the polar bear, the sloth, the crocodile, the fruit bat, the anaconda, etc? And how did the penguins and other cold-climate creatures survive in the blistering desert heat? Sorry but there is just no possible way that can happen.

Where in the bible does it say that the earth is round...
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Psalm 104:5

"Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble." Job 9:6

If Your God/Jesus created the earth wouldn't your God know that the earth is ROUND
and DOES NOT have 4 corners?

Christians: Your Bible says the earth has 4 corners. DONT DENY IT HERE IS MORE PROOF:

Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

If the bible wasn't written, it would of saved a lot of lives.

And you can't just say "this is so lucky to have happen - GOD DID IT". Yes the chances of Earth forming was extremely small but it's logical at all to say that a magical sky daddy did it.

(Her)
Quote: Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in"

Proverbs 8:27 "When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep"

As for the 'Four corners thing' that could purely be another 'translation issue' as you so happily declared the bible has so many of. Because I've seen the exact same verses in the bible saying "The four QUARTERS of the Earth"
And the Bible is full of symbolism, just because its written in a certain way makes everyone jump to conclusions. Its exactly the same thing with people misinterpreting verses negatively.

"If the bible wasn't written, it would of saved a lot of lives." I'm not even gonna bother writing an essay about that because thats the stupidest thing ever.
Hmmmm lets see....Most charity organisations are christian related, Catholic/Private schools tend to have less riffraff going on compared to public ones, Help centres for the homeless/abused...orphanages..yup lots of christian ones there...and thats to name a few today.

And since Christianity is one of the most dominant religion today and of the past. I wonder what it would be like if people didnt have the commandments stating in the bible: Do not Kill, Do not steal, Do not commit adultery, Love your neighbor as yourself...etc

Yes, sure less deaths. Sure.

Anyway it's 1pm and I have to sleep. Either way if you're trying to convince me to believe your 'scientific explanations' on everything (which I remember they thought the world was going to end quite a number of times, and caused a few suicides along with it, not to mention the animal testing, weapon making and a huge number of inhumane activities dedicated to 'research') are true. Then that wont be happening lol

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/...4464-1.jpg

U mad?

PLEASE any help?
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16-01-2012, 01:11 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
Moved from introductions

Behold the power of the force!
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16-01-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
I read this over coffee this morning and I love it.
http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thre...ory-of-God

Aside from that.... Before Christianity even existed... before the bible.. man still existed before Christ. That's not fiction that's a fact. Man still had morals. Man still had altruism. So if morals are simply based off of Christianity and that alone.. how is that the rest of mankind (much of which doesn't even believe in christianity since there are many religions on multiple continents, as well as those who don't believe) is capable is simply doing good for fellow man?

The other thing that never really made sense to me was the entire book of genesis. People say well... it's not supposed to be taken literally. But how isn't it when it explains there was day, then night and a day... then this happened. Then that happened.

How would the heavens and the earth be created, if every bit of scientific evidence suggests the universe came first... we came later on. How can the stars be created AFTER the earth?

I actually bothered to read the 7 tablets of creation this morning after I read that entire thread. I'd never bothered before. (why would i?)
I come from a Christian background, now more agnostic (or rather heavily siding on atheism anymore). So it's not like I'm new to the bible. If creation exists as it is either literally translated or potentially translated "philosophically" it still suggests the order of things is all kinds of fucked up. Our universe is expanding. So no matter what order you get stuff, the way it's described never really made any sense to me. Heavens and the earth, then this then that, oh by the way the stars come later.

Interesting fact... the SAME ORDER of things is on the 7 tablets of creation. Do you know why the stars were created? navigation... calendars, days, months years... http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/stc/stc08.htm

I read that and went "You have got to be shitting me."

If you get bored... go read all 7.. it's really quite interesting.

Meanwhile... I'm going to stick to my guns on what I've learned.

- Universe is expanding
- Radiation can be detected from the big bang
- Dark matter has been mapped
- The rate of expansion heavily not only suggest the big bang, but if we were to rewind it all, would suggest it all comes together.

I always thought of the big bang like this... if I have a balloon. It's there. Perhaps this balloon (the big bang) was created from something. Something we can't yet entirely comprehend. I can blow up this balloon and at some point it will pop. If you recorded this entire event of me blowing it up and it eventually going boom you'd see pieces of it go all over the place. Some have suggested that with string theory there are dimensions we don't yet understand because of the strings, but that the entire understanding of them can explain much of what we wish to apply to the mechanics and physics of it and the missing pieces. Afterall, much of it is an attempt at a theory that glues together the rest of them.

Creation suggests that this somehow wasn't a balloon. But instead suggests that a piece of balloon appeared out of thin air, that this one piece of balloon was the center of the rest of the balloon, and the rest of that balloon came later. It never blew up, even though we can see the pieces of the balloon are clearly all over the room. However, if we could rewind the footage of me recording it, the pieces would come back together and form that balloon before it got big, before it burst, before it went "kaboom!"

Of course then they beg the argument "Well then what was the balloon?" well we don't know that. Yet. "Oh well then, since you can't explain it, well.... it was created! And science can't entirely explain it so it must be... CREATION!" even though creation doesn't side with this scientific theory. Even though we have mapped these things. Shown it's expanding... they still REFUSE to believe the evidence at hand that this stuff is happening, it did happen and if we put 2 + 2 together, this makes sense.

Telling me that the earth was created. Then the stars.... well... that does not coincide with the big bang. Nor does it explain why the universe is expanding. We clearly are not at the center of the universe... so that also makes no sense. Based off the theory that at the center of every major galaxy is a supermassive black hole, and that scientists are trying to prove the theory that ONLY these super old galaxies contain these, and that if we can actually determine the age of them that it would confirm the age of the galaxies would coincide with the age of the UNIVERSE ALSO contradicts creation. So what if we figure out a way to do that? WHAT will be their next argument against more scientific evidence that suggests every other theory of "creation" is different than what we have found in cosmology, physics and evolution?

We live in a truly fascinating time of science, discovery, physics and cosmology. String theory fascinates me. If within my life time we find that "AHA" moment, and discover what we believe to be true with it... there are so many things that would change our perception, even more now of the universe.

Ignorance... is.... bliss.
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16-01-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
only thing I want to say without laying words in your mouth (after all I didn't start the discussion):
Don't let him drag you to the level of who did more bad things through out times. Cause that's what this looks like ... a bit at last... and it is not about who is worse, it is about who is more likely to be right.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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16-01-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
Quote: Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in"
They probably thought the earth was a flat circle. Anyway, if you're using the bible as a scientific resource that's just the beginning of your problems. Try explaining Noah's ark.
Quote:Proverbs 8:27 "When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep"

As for the 'Four corners thing' that could purely be another 'translation issue' as you so happily declared the bible has so many of. Because I've seen the exact same verses in the bible saying "The four QUARTERS of the Earth"
And the Bible is full of symbolism, just because its written in a certain way makes everyone jump to conclusions. Its exactly the same thing with people misinterpreting verses negatively.
Why would God write his word in such a deceptive way that makes people jump to false conclusions so quickly?
Quote:"If the bible wasn't written, it would of saved a lot of lives." I'm not even gonna bother writing an essay about that because thats the stupidest thing ever.
Hmmmm lets see....Most charity organisations are christian related, Catholic/Private schools tend to have less riffraff going on compared to public ones, Help centres for the homeless/abused...orphanages..yup lots of christian ones there...and thats to name a few today.
The majority of charity organizations are religious because the majority of people are religious. There are many secular charity organizations as well such as Habitat for Humanity.

There is less "riffraff" in Catholic/Private schools because they cost $10,000 a year.

Also, if you compare the murder rates of religious and non-religious nations, religious ones tend to be much higher. That's not to even mention events such as the Crusades, Inquisition, 9/11, etc.
Quote:And since Christianity is one of the most dominant religion today and of the past. I wonder what it would be like if people didnt have the commandments stating in the bible: Do not Kill, Do not steal, Do not commit adultery, Love your neighbor as yourself...etc

Yes, sure less deaths. Sure.
Bullshit. All these morals predate Judeo-Christianity by thousands of years.

Are you telling me if it wasn't written in your Bible you'd suddenly start killing, stealing, and cheating on people?
Quote:Anyway it's 1pm and I have to sleep. Either way if you're trying to convince me to believe your 'scientific explanations' on everything (which I remember they thought the world was going to end quite a number of times, and caused a few suicides along with it, not to mention the animal testing, weapon making and a huge number of inhumane activities dedicated to 'research') are true. Then that wont be happening lol
When has a scientist ever caused mass suicides? Example please?

Without science, you would most likely be dead by disease or tribal warfare right now. Before modern medicine, your entire family could have been wiped out by a disease easily. Now, you're vaccinated against most of them and most of the others can be treated with simple antibiotics now. World life expectancy has more than doubled in the past 100 years. Was it because of increased prayer? I doubt it.

You typed your argument on a computer that is the result of nearly a century of scientific research and progress.

You probably drive a car almost every day. Try praying for a new invention like a car or computer, and see if that works as well as teams of engineers designing one.

Can science have bad applications? Sure. But without it we would still be sitting in a cave somewhere dying of a minor lung infection.

Quote:http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/...4464-1.jpg

U mad?

No, not really.
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16-01-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
She seems to not understand that christians from 1,000 years ago would have laughed and said she was mis-interperting the bible herself.

Funny, how they change every few years or so.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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16-01-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
Honestly, I would just abandon ship. Your biblical critiques are flawed and very easily eviscerated.

Quote:"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Psalm 104:5

***This is one thing that I don't get about people trying to disprove the Bible. They'll grab a verse and not read the context. See below***

This psalm is praising the greatness of God. Look at it in context:

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul!
O LORD my God, You are very great;
You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak,
Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain.
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;
He makes the clouds His chariot;
He walks upon the wings of the wind;
4 He makes the winds His messengers,
Flaming fire His ministers.
5 He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.


None of this is literal. The author is using hyperbolic speech to try and convey the vastness and greatness of God. Did he literally mean that heaven was stretched out like a tent curtain or that God rides in cloud chariots or that wind and fire are some type of anthropomorphic messengers? No, of course not.

Quote:"Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble." Job 9:6

Again, context. Job is conveying the power and wrath of God in a hyperbolic language. For instance, if you wanted to display the massive strength of a person you could say, "That dude is insane. He could rip a grizzly in half." Obviously, he can't, but now you completely understand just how strong he is.

Quote:Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

...
really?
This was a common phrase that meant "whole" or "all". In fact, it's still used in English today... we don't LITERALLY mean the earth has 4 corners.

Quote:Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Longer here is a measure of time not length.
Occurances
Word
Root

Quote:If the bible wasn't written, it would of saved a lot of lives.

Using that logic I could say, "If cars weren't invented, it would have saved a lot of lives."

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16-01-2012, 02:04 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
That's true KC. If cars were never invented it would have saved a lot lives.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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16-01-2012, 02:09 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
Trying to argue with a woman is a lost battle my friend

Even if you win, you still lose

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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16-01-2012, 02:10 PM
RE: Forum Newbie - NEED HELP! Please help a fellow atheist
(16-01-2012 02:04 PM)lucradis Wrote:  That's true KC. If cars were never invented it would have saved a lot lives.

Not necessarily. You have to factor in lives saved rushing people to the hospital, etc.

You can argue all day long about "What if X had never existed?" but it won't do any good. The simple fact is it's nearly impossible to understand the complex consequences of a small event, let alone something major like cars or the bible.
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